Distrustful of Fe?

[Siúil a Rúin]

I read your post again ygolo, and it is really well put. I also understand the role of perception and why it's relevant. If someone happens to be confronted with some particular negative trait, it makes sense for them to have heightened awareness and distrust of that trait. Whatever aspects of their environment produced the initial problems are likely to reproduce the same scenarios. In one way prejudices help people filter down threats to those they are most likely to encounter. This probably is more effective when one's environment remains small and consistent. It's when prejudice is applied in a more universal context that it creates bigger problems than it originally attempted to solve.

Please, do keep in mind, that there is nothing aimed at you personally.

Your comment is hugely thoughtful and appreciated and goes a long way to bypass the regular work to stay balanced on the tightrope of thought. I can't say this applies to all Fe, but unfortunately it requires constant mindfulness to not absorb negativity whether it is directed personally or not. I find the worst is constant, consistent negativity that wears down my Fe. Repetition tends to make negativity 'feel' true, even if the mind fights it logically.

If you really want to understand where the rebelious attitude comes from, please look for examples that could be contrued as tyrannical from your Fe friends (or if you can stomach it, yourself).

I have observed/experienced these things. My former therapist with the wooden leg can tell you all about it. Regarding looking for examples from myself, i will say this: there is no one else on earth who has ever been on the receiving end of my "Fe tyranny" as I have been. That is why what i feel is not who i am. As far as others are concerned, I am duly crowned Madame Mishap.

My mom is Fi as well Toonia, however that had a good impact on me (for obvious reasons). I'm not sure I understood you correctly, you're saying that because your family was self-doubting and seemed fragile it caused you to hide your achivements. Was that an explicit parental expectation? or your parents identified more with your sibilings and kind of gave you implicit cues that was not ok to do that?

I consider that i benefitted as well and appreciate many positive aspects to my upbringing exactly as it was.

 

[Totenkindly]

there is no one else on earth who has ever been on the receiving end of my "Fe tyranny" as I have been. That is why what i feel is not who i am.

Are you describing the unnerving tendency to be self-conscious of everything you do or say externally/publicly, constantly afraid you are going to fall off the tightrope and plummet straight, pinwheeling and wailing, to the ground? Like everyone around you is packing iron and any misstep will leave you able to drink a glass of water and spurt like a fountain from the swiss cheese that remains of your torso?

I have had at least one other person bringing up the hyped-up self-monitoring thing to me recently.... sigh.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Are you describing the unnerving tendency to be self-conscious of everything you do or say externally/publicly, constantly afraid you are going to fall off the tightrope and plummet straight, pinwheeling and wailing, to the ground? Like everyone around you is packing iron and any misstep will leave you able to drink a glass of water and spurt like a fountain from the swiss cheese that remains of your torso?

I have had at least one other person bringing up the hyped-up self-monitoring thing to me recently.... sigh.

I think that is related and spot on for most cases. What i was talking about specifically is the internalizing of negativity and abuse and then reinacting it on oneself. "If you can't beat 'em, join them." It's about having to run away from a crowd of human rejection to saves oneself from becoming their own rejection. It's about running to find a sunset to internalize to become a sunset instead. It is the human equivalent of this...

Parrots do this for a variety of reasons including nutrition deficits, but i understand that a sense of isolation is one such motivation. Failing to belong.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think that is related and spot on for most cases. What i was talking about specifically is the internalizing of negativity and abuse and then reinacting it on oneself. ... Parrots do this for a variety of reasons including nutrition deficits, but i understand that a sense of isolation is one such motivation. Failing to belong.

Please don't do that to yourself.

It would be like setting the Sistine Chapel aflame or scribbling over the Mona Lisa or detonating the Arc d'Triumph.

Don't.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Please don't do that to yourself.

It would be like setting the Sistine Chapel aflame or scribbling over the Mona Lisa or detonating the Arc d'Triumph.

Don't.

Thanks Apologies for the ugliness of those pictures, but i chose them for accuracy of meaning. I actually found my way out of that without external support, so i am somewhat proud of myself for that. An emotional process that primarily internalizes from the outside world is capable of private sensitivity and pain others don't know about. It will tend to be hidden in an attempt to keep the external world as positive as possible. Someone who is sincerely internalizing pain will hide it. You will not know if they are experiencing this sort of thing I describe. They will often smile to greet you and such.

This type of thing happens to many people in many different manifestations. I would even venture to say that disorders like anorexia can have some relationship to this internalization of pain. I do think it is important to take the risk of making people feel strong.

edit: i would not be engaging in this type of discussion publically if i were currently battling it head on. At this point it is simply a distant phantom that reminds me to regulate such scenarios before they go too far.

 

[Totenkindly]

An emotional process that primarily internalizes from the outside world is capable of private sensitivity and pain others don't know about. It will tend to be hidden in an attempt to keep the external world as positive as possible. Someone who is sincerely internalizing pain will hide it. You will not know if they are experiencing this sort of thing I describe. They will often smile to greet you and such.

People are often shocked when they find out the inner hells that some of us live in.

I do think it is important to take the risk of making people feel strong.

Could you explain this a bit better, Toonia? You have said it before, so it must be important, but I still haven't figured out quite what you meant by it.

 

[Park]

ARGH this is such a good thread but I have a problem. Translated to Danish, Fis=fart (present) and Fes=farted (past) Tis=urin. As I juggle around with descriptions like sensor farts, intuitive farts, and dominant urin, the whole debate becomes encreasingly more and more disturbing.

Fis sometimes come across as rude and insensitive because they tend to ignore etiquette rules.

Agreed.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

ARGH this is such a good thread but I have a problem. Translated to Danish, Fis=fart (present) and Fes=farted (past) Tis=urin. As I juggle around with descriptions like sensor farts, intuitive farts, and dominant urin, the whole debate becomes encreasingly more and more disturbing.



Agreed.

LOL!

You can begin the day spewing out dominant Tis, but that doesn't take into account the social effects of your inferior Fis problems today or your weak Fes problems yesterday.

 

[Park]

LOL!

You can begin the day spewing out dominant Tis, but that doesn't take into account the social effects of your inferior Fis problems today or your weak Fes problems yesterday.

Hehe, I'll ad some wise words from BlueWing to that.

To Fis it comes only as naturally as critical thinking for Tis.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

ARGH this is such a good thread but I have a problem. Translated to Danish, Fis=fart (present) and Fes=farted (past) Tis=urin. As I juggle around with descriptions like sensor farts, intuitive farts, and dominant urin, the whole debate becomes encreasingly more and more disturbing.

Somehow very little is lost in translation. I think you kinda summed it up.

 

[Park]

Somehow very little is lost in translation. I think you kinda summed it up.

Ouch Ni at work.... perhaps for all this time I was debating MBTI while you guys were really debating.... that's so sick :steam:.


...I feel so violated.

 

[ygolo]

Fe = superego for many?

I read your post again ygolo, and it is really well put. I also understand the role of perception and why it's relevant. If someone happens to be confronted with some particular negative trait, it makes sense for them to have heightened awareness and distrust of that trait. Whatever aspects of their environment produced the initial problems are likely to reproduce the same scenarios. In one way prejudices help people filter down threats to those they are most likely to encounter. This probably is more effective when one's environment remains small and consistent. It's when prejudice is applied in a more universal context that it creates bigger problems than it originally attempted to solve.

Your comment is hugely thoughtful and appreciated and goes a long way to bypass the regular work to stay balanced on the tightrope of thought. I can't say this applies to all Fe, but unfortunately it requires constant mindfulness to not absorb negativity whether it is directed personally or not. I find the worst is constant, consistent negativity that wears down my Fe. Repetition tends to make negativity 'feel' true, even if the mind fights it logically.

I have observed/experienced these things. My former therapist with the wooden leg can tell you all about it. Regarding looking for examples from myself, i will say this: there is no one else on earth who has ever been on the receiving end of my "Fe tyranny" as I have been. That is why what i feel is not who i am. As far as others are concerned, I am duly crowned Madame Mishap.

I consider that i benefitted as well and appreciate many positive aspects to my upbringing exactly as it was.

I've been away from the forum for a while (to make sure I got some work done). But I wanted to clarify some things, especially with regards to the notion of "power" or "tyranny".

Consider this description of the Fe cognitive process.

Extraverted Feeling

Everybody has this process to some extent. What other cognitive processes inform Fe and how much free-reign it is given depends on the person. In Freudian terms, this description is almost a match for the "superego".

Definition of superego - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

I don't think the descriptions of the other functions have quite as straight forward an analogy to Freud's theories. Fi doesn't really match the "id", Ti and Te are not really connected to desires per say. The percieving functions just percieve.

compare
Definition of id - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
to
Introverted Feeling

I think the Fe to super-ego correspondence is about as close to a match between Jungs cognitive processes and Frued's divisions of the psyche as we will find.

One key difference (depending on the person), is how conscious the Fe function is. Technically, the superego is unconcious, but Fe may be a conscious process for some people.

Now imagine a person for whom Fe is unconsious, and I am claiming Fe is a good match for his/her superego. Then you would find his/her id (composed of many functions) rebeling against Fe, and perhaps the people he/she feels has "control" of this process in a particular setting. This person may or may not be an Fe dominant/auxillary person, but nevertheles the pressure to conform to them would come from Fe.

For me, this is a source of distrust of Fe (as a cognitive process), but not necessarily of Fe's (as people who prefer the Fe process for dominant or auxillary functioning).

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Ouch Ni at work.... perhaps for all this time I was debating MBTI while you guys were really debating.... that's so sick :steam:.


...I feel so violated.

LOL

Farting or feeling, thinking or peeing, you say po-tay-toe, I say po-tah-toe. There are definitely some metaphors at work here. Whee!

And ygolo, i'll get back to your post, but want to give it due thought.

 

[niffer]

Fe is more detached and therefore has more potential to be "fake" and used for manipulation. However, without Fe most of the NFs would be sad and most of the SJs would be confused.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I've been away from the forum for a while (to make sure I got some work done). But I wanted to clarify some things, especially with regards to the notion of "power" or "tyranny".

Consider this description of the Fe cognitive process.

Extraverted Feeling

Everybody has this process to some extent. What other cognitive processes inform Fe and how much free-reign it is given depends on the person. In Freudian terms, this description is almost a match for the "superego".

Definition of superego - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

I don't think the descriptions of the other functions have quite as straight forward an analogy to Freud's theories. Fi doesn't really match the "id", Ti and Te are not really connected to desires per say. The percieving functions just percieve.

compare
Definition of id - Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
to
Introverted Feeling

I think the Fe to super-ego correspondence is about as close to a match between Jungs cognitive processes and Frued's divisions of the psyche as we will find.

One key difference (depending on the person), is how conscious the Fe function is. Technically, the superego is unconcious, but Fe may be a conscious process for some people.

Now imagine a person for whom Fe is unconsious, and I am claiming Fe is a good match for his/her superego. Then you would find his/her id (composed of many functions) rebeling against Fe, and perhaps the people he/she feels has "control" of this process in a particular setting. This person may or may not be an Fe dominant/auxillary person, but nevertheles the pressure to conform to them would come from Fe.

For me, this is a source of distrust of Fe (as a cognitive process), but not necessarily of Fe's (as people who prefer the Fe process for dominant or auxillary functioning).

Interesting post. I am curious to read a bit more about the relationship between Jung and Freud. There is one since Jung is one of the sheep that left the fold so to speak. I know they interpret dreams differently. Freud's structure of the personality does not explore any differentiation between individuals while Jungs is based on that, as i'm sure you know, but it is an interesting contrast. You are right that the super-ego and id are both the source of problems when they are out of balance. The ego is the regulating system between the instinctual aggression of the id and the social responsibility of the super-ego. It is realistic and rational. (i wonder if you could even compare it to the T functions for this?)

On a related, but different note, I do agree that when the sense of individual and community come out of balance suffering is the result. This could be part of this tyranny of Fe you talk about. When the individual is completely dissolved into the group or when the individual expects the group to bend to their sole vision, there is often resulting suffering. Some of the greatest travesties occur when the individuals submit their wills to the group, absolving themselves of personal responsibility and giving over to mob mentality. History is littered with this phenomenon. On a contrasting note, there are examples when an entire town helps to sandbag river beds or help out in a disaster. This aspect of human nature is extremely powerful and fleeting. An entire community can be transformed from angels to devils based solely on the wind of circumstance. It is what terrifies me most about humanity.

From a different perspective regarding my own experience, my internalizing of negativity to a destructive point occurred primarily during adolescence and was continually fought off through my twenties. (Admittedly certain negative patterns require mindfulness throughout a lifetime once set into a habit.) The frontal lobe does not generally complete its development until physical growth is completed around age 18. Since the frontal lobe is the judgment center of the brain which regulates excesses of emotion and such, it is the tool required to safeguard these destructive overloads (possibly comparable to Freud's ego?) This is why it is more difficult for teenagers to regulate themselves. Anyway, YAY for frontal lobes!

 

[heart]

Jung lost respect for Freud because of Freud's deceptive infidelity, that's part of their split that had nothing to do with their professional lives.

 

[heart]

Growing up their emotional pain and self esteem issues resulted in my being expected to hide any aspect of myself that would conflict with that. If i won an award at school, I knew to shut up about it or be guilty of causing them to question their self esteem.

That's interesting. I have been made to feel the same way by my Fe mother when I was a child and my Fe MIL and SIL now as an adult (They do the same to my husband). Lots of emotional blackmail and also many sharp/abusive/hurtful comments (or worse in my mother's case) coming out as if from their shadow and then hotly denied later on OR blamed on my having "pushed" their buttons or my "selfishness". Very crazy making before one reaches the age where they know what is really going on.

My mother in particular accused me of being "arrogant", thinking I was "better" than she was, being cold, not loving her, thinking I was "smarter" than she was. She would tell me I was stupid, too dreamy, cold, weak etc. Then she would cry, insist on hugging me and slather on the really heavy Fe later and say she was sorry but that my arrogance aloofness had *drove* her to it, then demand some Fe from me in return. I could not draw a breath without offending her it seemed sometimes!

In the case of your Fi family, was it vocal on their parts or more implied? The Fe I knew were very vocal about it.

I was generally seen as the strongest, the one who could most easily adapt and bend to create the peace and such.

That's where the similarity ends. They see me as much weaker than they are/were and have no problems patting themselves on the back about that and being super condesending to me about it. They assume/assumed that they make all the compromises in the relationships. ( I am talking about what I consider to be underdeveloped Fe, not Fe in general)

I also have an Fi sister who says she can never forgive me because I am my mother's daughter. That's it, no mercy on me for something I can never change and had no choice in. To me that's a real example of underdeveloped Fi.

I see emotions as fleeting, as similar to physical sensations of sickness and pleasure. They are like the weather gradually carving and restructuring the bedrock and cliffs of the internal terrain. Emotions happen to me, they impact me, but they are not me. I can look at them like external objects even when experiencing the emotion. They intrigue me like mysterious complex puzzles that are enlightening to solve. I can completely disregard my emotions if the situation requires it. I also have some measure of distrust in emotion because in extremes it does block thinking. I embrace emotion for their experience and meaning, but keep them at arms length in case they blur one's ability to perceive clearly and have a coherent understanding.

As Fi I can say the same, my raw emotions are not me, like anger, saddness, fear, yes those are fleeting etc, I also find them intriquing and something to anaylze and solve their root causes. I don't trust an unexamined emotional response.

My beliefs and values and my feelings about them are very important to my sense of self.

 

[Totenkindly]

The ego is the regulating system between the instinctual aggression of the id and the social responsibility of the super-ego. It is realistic and rational. (i wonder if you could even compare it to the T functions for this?)

I have been considering basic Freud personality construction recently, Toonia, and my perception of the ego was more of an Fi than a T. (So it is still rational -- a judging function.)

Ego = Sense of self... and the mediator as you say between the id, the superego, and the outer world / external reality [the last part is important!] Fi is what really seems to lend someone a sense of self, values, personal boundaries, etc.

I determined that my ego is very very weak or almost non-existent, which is why I don't know "who I am" most of the time. Instead, I have virtually been following the demands of the superego, my inner police captain, who tells me what I should and should not do and instills guilt at any time when I deviate from it.

So I am in the process of building a healthy ego -- a sense of "me" and my needs and boundaries -- and relegating the superego back to where it belongs... as a point of advice to help guide, but not dictate, my decisions and arrangements with the outer world.

Some of the greatest travesties occur when the individuals submit their wills to the group, absolving themselves of personal responsibility and giving over to mob mentality. History is littered with this phenomenon.

Mai Lai being one of them... (But I suppose Charles Manson will do as well.)

On a contrasting note, there are examples when an entire town helps to sandbag river beds or help out in a disaster. This aspect of human nature is extremely powerful and fleeting. An entire community can be transformed from angels to devils based solely on the wind of circumstance. It is what terrifies me most about humanity.

So what is the catalyst? What is the thing that actively changes people from profane to profound or back again?

Anyway, YAY for frontal lobes!

I have always been fond of my pancreas. (It's always been there for me, secreting those enzymes!)

To support heart, the rift between Freud and Jung seemed to me to be a more personal issue than professional, with Freud being the main culprit. Jung lost personal respect for Freud; and Freud was very domineering, always having to be in the "mentor" role and never subservient, so when Jung began to challenge him or simply promote his own ideas that did not support Freud per se, Freud took it personally and cut off ties. His life shows a pattern of that.

 

[proteanmix]

Posts about Freud/Jung's type moved here

 

[cafe]

I have always been fond of my pancreas. (It's always been there for me, secreting those enzymes!)

Just stay away from the weasels and I won't have to hurt you.