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  1. #61
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    It doesnt matter who agrees with what, it only matters what is true. To paraphrase what Jung said in some of the quotations in this thread, people think that quantity without quality makes substance. That if you put many zeroes together, they will somehow make a one. It doesnt matter how many people hold a particular view, it does not have merit unless it is true.
    The converse of that is some people believe that if many people agree that something is true, the more people believe it, the less truth it has because truth is some sort of untouchable esoteric blob existing in the outer reaches of the universe that only a limited gifted few have access to. The truth can't possibly be that simple, they think, when it really is. So simple that even children can grasp it.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #62
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Bluewing, you are the most striking example I've ever seen of Jung's assertion that "people tend to overvalue their own type".
    BlueWing has that special way of saying, "I've studied the matter thoroughly, and now I can authoritatively say that my type is the best."
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  3. #63
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    ("Welcome to the Jungle," Guns N' Roses)
    Ah, Axel Rose -- the poet philosopher for the ages!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Example: an FJ and an FP want to buy cake for someone's birthday. Using this extremely simplified example, are you saying that an FJ would buy chocolate cake (because that's what everyone likes) whereas an FP would find out if the person even likes chocolate (because that individual may/may not want chocolate, or may not want a cake at all?) If I'm misunderstanding this, please tell me. I can see how the impersonality of buying the cake would be Fe, because they may go out and buy cake for everyone's birthday, while the FP may only buy a cake for the people they care about.
    Fis sometimes come across as rude and insensitive because they tend to ignore etiquette rules. I can see how buying the cake is a way for Fe to show their appreciation, but a Fi (unless they found that important) would skip the cake all together. As I mature, I see more and more the importance of showing through 'symbols' the appreciation I feel towards someone. Before I would just feel it and forget to tell the other person. I see a lot of value in Fe, but it is the function (when not healthy) that aggravates me the most.

    This really leads me to believe that either people (including myself: I may be being obtuse about the matter) don't know the difference between Fe and Fi other than textbook definitions or the differences between these two functions break down under close examination. If a Fe's Fi is concerned with others and a Fi's Fi (make sense?) is concerned with helping others then how do you make the distinction?.
    Fi would like to connect you to your inner values. For example, a Fi would want you to forget about other people for a moment, in a time of crisis, and would ask you the following question: "What do you want to do? What is important to you?" That's not a simple answer and would require you to do a lot of inner search to answer that question. Fi is more hand off. Worst case scenario - They wont' necessarily be there for you like a Fe would, they would think you're capable of dealing with the crisis on your on and you might feel alone.

    In a time of crisis, at least that was the help I got from significant Fes in my life, they help you get through it even if it requires great sacrifice on their part. They are there for you. They have a more directive style though and like to participate in figuring out what is important to. Worst case scenario -They can become frustrated when you don't want follow their advices or don't need them anymore. (I can be wrong here, that's my impression)

    They have different approaches. A person in complete despair would benefit a lot from Fe. A person trying to figure out what to do with their lives would benefit from interaction with Fi. That's my take on it so far.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Ah, Axel Rose -- the poet philosopher for the ages!
    Just chuckling at the thought that I might be expected to morph into some kind of 19th century aristocratic Romantic philosopher in order to live up to BlueWing's expectations of my personality type.

    I have my pretensions to education and culture, but I'm also a child of my times. An ex-Marine. A business executive who watches TV while eating supper with the wife. A house in the suburbs, a sedan, an SUV, and a leafblower.

    If I push myself hard and really dig deep, I might be able to come up with a pretty good impression of one of the Three Stooges. Will that do?

    Or maybe Mick Jagger:

    If I could stick my pen in my heart
    I would spill it all over the stage
    Would it satisfy ya, would it slide on by ya
    Would you think the boy is strange? Ain't he strange?
    If I could win ya, if I could sing ya
    A love song so divine
    Would it be enough for your cheating heart
    If I broke down and cried? If I cried?
    I said I know it's only rock 'n roll but I like it
    I know it's only rock'n roll but I like it, like it, yes, I do


  6. #66
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I have my pretensions to education and culture, but I'm also a child of my times.....
    Me, I came of age in the early '80's...

    West End Girls (Pet Shop Boys)

    Sometimes you're better off dead
    There's a gun in your hand and it's pointing at your head
    You think you're mad too unstable
    Kicking in chairs and knocking down tables
    In a restaurant in a West End town
    Call the police
    There's a madman around
    Running down underground to a dive bar
    In a West End town

    In a West End town a dead end world
    The East End boys and West End girls
    In a West End town a dead end world
    The East End boys and West End girls
    West End girls

    Too many shadows whispering voices
    Faces on posters too many choices
    If when why what how much have you got
    Have you got it do you get it
    If so how often
    Which do you choose
    A hard or soft option
    (How much do you need)...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #67
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Just chuckling at the thought that I might be expected to morph into some kind of 19th century aristocratic Romantic philosopher in order to live up to BlueWing's expectations of my personality type.
    What about:

    Elliot Smith
    Anthony Keidis
    Adam Sandler
    James Taylor

    as Fi figures of our times?
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    What about:

    Elliot Smith
    Anthony Keidis
    Adam Sandler
    James Taylor

    as Fi figures of our times?
    The first two are after my time (I only know a couple of their top 40 radio hits). And James Taylor was a soft-rock crooner (I was never a fan).

    I like Adam Sandler. He's funny and hardworking. His movie roles play around with the contradiction between the self-sacrificing nice guy and the anger and aggression hidden beneath the surface in all of us. Humor is often about put-downs and thinly-veiled aggression.

    Adam Sandler can play the role of "sensitive guy," but he also seems like he has enough of a selfish streak in him to elbow people aside and claim some personal space when people crowd him. I respect that quality and try to practice it frequently in my own life.

    Oh well, time for me to quit playing with message boards and get back to my work week.

  9. #69
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Anecdotal observations:

    Interestingly enough I grew up in a family with two Fi dominant and one that is Fi rather than Fe, but not sure where it ranks in the line up. When all else is equal and Fe and Fi come into conflict, i 'think' it is more likely that Fe will give in to the wishes of Fi. For example, if Fi feels concern about a choice that a loved Fe is making, they will likely at some point become overwhelmed with this concern and share it unedited with the Fe they care about. This places the person with Fe into a corner of two choices: 1. To continue with their original choice knowing full well the emotional wreckage it will cause Fi, even if the choice does not involve them in any way outside their feelings of concern, or 2. Comply with the wishes of Fi to quell the negative emotion even if Fe does not see any other 'reason' to do this.

    Fi in its most intense, passionate mode cannot be easily reasoned with. At least that is my experience. It is indeed sincere, heartfelt, and based on its own method of reason and meaning, but if you conflict with it, there is absolutely nothing that can be said to alter this worldview of Fi. It can be fairly typical to be inadvertedly forced into such ultimatums of change or cause pain, even though that is not the Fi's intent. They aren't thinking about your inner world at that moment, but theirs which is hitting them like a tidal wave.

    Anyway, just a thought in the context of very kind people that demonstrates that there isn't one version of Feeling that can make someone feel pressured or intruded, etc. Those scenarios are worth encountering because they help maturity to occur, even if they hurt a little by mistake.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capitu View Post
    Fi would like to connect you to your inner values. For example, a Fi would want you to forget about other people for a moment, in a time of crisis, and would ask you the following question: "What do you want to do? What is important to you?" That's not a simple answer and would require you to do a lot of inner search to answer that question. Fi is more hand off. Worst case scenario - They wont' necessarily be there for you like a Fe would, they would think you're capable of dealing with the crisis on your on and you might feel alone.
    That makes very much sense to me, as I look at all the MBTI functions on the grid. INTP and INFP share a sense of autonomy. INTP is creating a model of impersonal reality inside; INFP is creating a model of personal reality. The only differences are due to the T/F factor, but INTP and INFP should share some traits (which includes the "autonomy" thing).

    Most INFPs I know seem hesitant to intrude or overwrite someone else's choices or tell them what to do. They understand the need for a person to be true to themselves and include that as part of their decision making.

    In a time of crisis, at least that was the help I got from significant Fes in my life, they help you get through it even if it requires great sacrifice on their part. They are there for you. They have a more directive style though and like to participate in figuring out what is important to. Worst case scenario -They can become frustrated when you don't want follow their advices or don't need them anymore.
    No, I've experienced that, at least when dealing with xSFJ types. ESFJs tend to be much more involved and show frustration more quickly; ISFJ tends to hold back, but with people they are intimately involved with (and thus can be open with), they show the same tendencies.

    And they also are so willing and able to make those large sacrifices. It's so easy for them to lose or ignore themselves in the equation of what must be done.

    Just dealing with Rose... whew. I am constantly telling her that she needs to consider what is best for everyone concerned, not just the people with a need, and especially be concerned about what is best for herself instead of constantly ignore her own needs; but when she sees someone with a need that Fe is telling her must be met, you can rest assured that she will be dead before she stops trying to meet the need. It's a wonderful gift... and a terrible curse all at once.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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