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  1. #51
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I do think many ENTPs and INTPs have a pretty good understanding of Fe. I also think many of us use it quite skillfully. It makes sense to me that the described chameleon trait in INTPs is supported by Fe.
    Speaking from personal experience I can understand Fe intellectually, but in practice I find it somewhat mysterious. Sure my Ne is telling me what the cause/effect result of certain social norms are, but at the same time I ask myself, "Why do people do this stuff?" Whenever I use Fe it's really more like my Ne faking Fe. I go through the motions because of the effect I realize that it will have on the other person, but it does not have the same effect on me.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Speaking from personal experience I can understand Fe intellectually, but in practice I find it somewhat mysterious. Sure my Ne is telling me what the cause/effect result of certain social norms are, but at the same time I ask myself, "Why do people do this stuff?" Whenever I use Fe it's really more like my Ne faking Fe. I go through the motions because of the effect I realize that it will have on the other person, but it does not have the same effect on me.
    I do the same. Sometimes I use Fe because it's easier to do what's expected than to ignore unwritten social rules and when I use Fe in a insincere manner, it conflicts with my truthseeking Ti.
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  3. #53
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Fi seems very good at connection with people one on one. Basically, Fi uses a personal investment with others in order to convince them of one's motivation.

    Meanwhile, Fe uses a socially agreed-upon "language" or context to convey feelings of commitment and goodwill -- or the opposite, I suppose, if one is trying to be very clear publicly of their disdain for someone.

    (Example: Someone will purposefully break etiquette -- the accepted rules -- in public in order to show purposefully disdain for someone else. It could be showing up for a dinner party with obviously inappropriate clothing. Or using a particular comment during a public political debate to "call someone out." Etc. The whole point here is to embarrass or snub. But it's still Fe.)

    Because Fi is so personal, it's easier to embrace than Fe, which is more impersonal and detached. Fi also "stays the same" -- you can usually tell when someone is very fond of you or cares about you -- but Fe can change as society changes. What is appropriate in one time period sometimes becomes inappropriate as the years pass. Thus, Fe seems more arbitrary (because it actually is) and impersonal and fickle, in some ways.

    These are a few of my thoughts on it...
    That sounds reasonable and right, but Fe is supposed to be my second function and the descriptions here don't fit. Fi sound much more familiar in your context. So much so that i have completely restructured my professional life to insure that i can interact with people one on one. That is a huge driving force in my life. I do think i am an INFJ, but i grew up with an INFP. These are some contrasts i notice:

    1. Empathy: Fi empathy is very focused, intense and personal. It tends to single out certain individuals and lavish this understanding on them. This selective empathy is constant, never ending. Limited personal resources results in focus on the few. Fe empathy is more diffuse, equally distributed amongst people regardless of their reactions. It could be compared to the distinction between a panic attack (Fi) and generalized anxiety(Fe), only applied to the concept of empathy instead of anxiety. When Fe resources are low, the entire switch flips off and feeling is placed on hold until the inner self is filled up.

    2. Projection vs. Internalizing: When encountering a person the Fi sense of their inner world and feelings is so clear and intense, that the only error Fi is apt to make is to project their own innocence and passion onto the external person. Fe inner world is in more flux emotionally and readily absorbs whatever emotions are in the environment. Fe error is to mistake the attributes of others as their own, while Fi is to mistake their own attributes as belonging to others.

    3. Emotional convention: Fi will respond to emotional contexts within the extensive framework they have create deep inside themselves. The concept of convention can be quite strong, but is in a profoundly personal context. This internal sense of convention can be broadly developed to include multiple scenarios, but will tend to all be linked to a single inner vision of how people ought to value emotional responses and communication. Fi strives to maintain this inner consistency and peace projecting it outward. Fe is more aware of external conventions and is willing to alter their own sense of expectation to fit the specific scenario. Their value lies in terms of maintaining external peace and consistency, but use a variety of means to achieve this goal. Their inner assumptions about how people will interact emotionally is not as well developed, and so they more readily accept various strategies based on the context.

    4. Connecting to others: Fi has the ability to draw people into their rich world of meaning and compassion. They are like a beacon, a lighthouse on the shore. There can be constancy, stability. When no one responds to this beacon, there is longing. Fe searches outwardly to connect to the other person on whatever terms are presented. They have a treasure map and are searching outwardly for the buried treasure. Fe hopes to find meaning and compassion by offering a reason to be let into the world of another person. When this does not occur the isolation aches. Edit: It's possible that Fe tends to be more self critical because it's measure of attaining an ideal is based on the external world which is in flux. It is pretty easy to feel a sense of failure since achieving peace in the external world is much more of a lost cause than that of the internal world, generally speaking. [/edit]

    Both are equally sincere. Both can hold the value of wanting the greatest peace, meaning, and benefit for all involved. Perhaps in their ugliest scenarios Fi will fall into blind narcissism, while Fe into hypocrisy and lies? Once again MBTI is not a determinant for morality. Forcing it to be disrupts the path to achieve understanding.

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  4. #54
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Wouldn't be much of a surprise if your F resembled an Fi more than Fe. Ni bends it inwards. That is the reason why INTJs often seem like they have Ti and are more analytical than ENTPs.
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  5. #55
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Bluewing, you are the most striking example I've ever seen of Jung's assertion that "people tend to overvalue their own type".
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

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  6. #56
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Nothing that I said had anythign to do with values, just pure reasoning.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  7. #57
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Nothing that I said had anythign to do with values, just pure reasoning.
    I'll leave it to others to decide if they agree.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  8. #58
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Since there is a tendency for people to seek out worst case scenarios to understand for self-protection, i thought perhaps it was worth outlining two worst case scenarios in the interaction of Fe and Fi in an abusive context in which one is innocent and the other guilty.

    Fe as perpetrator, Fi as victim
    Fi has a deep innate sense of trust in self and believes that others on some level are worthy of a similar trust. Deep down everyone is 'good'. Fi falls in love with a troubled scarred Fe believing that Fe only needs to be embraced into their inner peace to find the same within themself. Fi projects their innocence onto Fe seeing them as a scarred child needing love. Fe maintains a front with Fi to keep the benefit of this false perception, but lives out contradictory roles in which the trust of Fi is disregarded for other goals. Fe is nothing like Fi imagines and takes advantage of this misplaced trust.

    Fi as perpetrator, Fe as victim
    Fe has made efforts to connect with Fi who is deeply troubled, but much like someone from their past by whom they were influenced. Fe believes that since such a connection has been made that compassion will come from it. Fi projects their own pathology onto Fe, accusing them of everything Fi is actually guilty of. After enough repetition, Fe becomes confused and resolves this conflict by accepting the identify imposed on them. In their mind they must have done something wrong, they must be guilty or this would not be occurring.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  9. #59
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I'll leave it to others to decide if they agree.
    It doesnt matter who agrees with what, it only matters what is true. To paraphrase what Jung said in some of the quotations in this thread, people think that quantity without quality makes substance. That if you put many zeroes together, they will somehow make a one. It doesnt matter how many people hold a particular view, it does not have merit unless it is true.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    ..but what about heroes like Shakespeare..Rousseau...Virgil...Kierkegaard.. Tolstoy..all Fi dominant besides the last one..he was a secondary Fi though..they were the ones who have shown us the true splendor of the human 'spirit'...
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