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  1. #41
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Why are people so distrustful of Fe? It is the one function that I see the most consistently criticized (along with Si) as being hypocritical, manipulative, self-righteous, and insincere. What about this function makes people think of it in those terms?

    Imagine what the world would be like without Fe. I think it would be a very unwelcoming place. If belonging (cue theme from "Cheers") is important to people then I think Fe is the mechanism through which this occurs. Is Fi able to do this just as well as Fe? Are people wary of Fi also or is this only reserved for Fe?
    You have to consider the group you are talking to. Fe is useful for making everyone feel included in some sort of social group. Unfortunately for people who are unusual Fe can make them feel even more excluded. This is true more so for SFJ's than NFJ's, since SFJ's are more oriented toward maintaining tradition and accepted standards. (Based on my limited experience with NFJ's, I have found they are very good at making everyone feel included regardless of who they are.)

    Now consider that this board is dominated by INxx's who feel misunderstood by everyone. Their experience with Fe is usually bad, because it causes them to be excluded. Additionally many NT's don't really understand Fe because it is a weak function for us. (I know that I personally view many social conventions as pointless.)

    Then you also have to consider that we are a community, but a community with a decided weakness in Fe, so that makes our community a bit socially retarded in some ways. Most societies (including ours) need some type of scapegoat to bring everyone together. The lack of Fe in this one means that we need several: sensors, extraverts, people with a strong Fe preference, etc.... The thinkers have to use their vaunted intelligence to determine the "worst" judging function, and they have "logically" decided that it is Fe.

    Ok the previous paragraph is said with tongue firmly planted in cheek of course. This is a place where a lot of people come to gripe and escape from their RL problems, so sometimes it's good to take what is said with a grain of salt.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varelse View Post
    That sounds about right. Fe is a weak spot of mine, and when it's used against me, it hurts. My mom has a tendency to use it against me, for one. It's an easy place for her to reach, but one that I have difficulty with.
    For me, when some Fe dominant people demand Fe of me, it is hard because it often feels fake or forced. They often don't understand this and see it as me being "cold". My explainations do not matter. They push harder or get angry and then the whole situation is soured for me and hard for me to deal with. Unfortunately for me, most of the women in my family, but my own and my spouse's are Fe dominant.

    Until reading more MBTI have totally not understood them and often seen them as being totally opposed to me, it has been through MBTI that I have been able to see that this is just the way their brains work, but often it still feels like . I am still a work in progress in trying to better understand how to interact with them.

    The problem for me often is that my gut is telling me one thing and their lips are telling me another and then sooner or later their actions match up with my guts but their lips keep denying it. I just get so frustrated with the whole scene.

  3. #43
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    You have to consider the group you are talking to. Fe is useful for making everyone feel included in some sort of social group. Unfortunately for people who are unusual Fe can make them feel even more excluded. This is true more so for SFJ's than NFJ's, since SFJ's are more oriented toward maintaining tradition and accepted standards. (Based on my limited experience with NFJ's, I have found they are very good at making everyone feel included regardless of who they are.)

    Now consider that this board is dominated by INxx's who feel misunderstood by everyone. Their experience with Fe is usually bad, because it causes them to be excluded. Additionally many NT's don't really understand Fe because it is a weak function for us. (I know that I personally view many social conventions as pointless.)

    Then you also have to consider that we are a community, but a community with a decided weakness in Fe, so that makes our community a bit socially retarded in some ways. Most societies (including ours) need some type of scapegoat to bring everyone together. The lack of Fe in this one means that we need several: sensors, extraverts, people with a strong Fe preference, etc.... The thinkers have to use their vaunted intelligence to determine the "worst" judging function, and they have "logically" decided that it is Fe.

    Ok the previous paragraph is said with tongue firmly planted in cheek of course. This is a place where a lot of people come to gripe and escape from their RL problems, so sometimes it's good to take what is said with a grain of salt.
    Believe you me, I was/am very aware of my audience. This is a topic that I've thought about frequently in the past, especially as a lurker at INTPc and I noticed the contempt towards Fe. I know the primary audience is not one that is willing to believe that Fe is not an evil function seeking to destroy individuality and souls because all it's concerned about is appearances and conformity. It's not like I haven't been the recipient of immature Fe, so I know it happens. The responses have actually been a lot tamer than what I anticipated so I guess that's a good thing.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Additionally many NT's don't really understand Fe because it is a weak function for us.
    I do think many ENTPs and INTPs have a pretty good understanding of Fe. I also think many of us use it quite skillfully. It makes sense to me that the described chameleon trait in INTPs is supported by Fe.
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  5. #45
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    Bluewing while you have previously been spot on in your critique of feelers (and indeed, other types) I think you are hammering Fe harder over the head than it actually deserves, or at the very least charging ENFJs with typical ESFJ shortcommings.

    proteanmix, the central problem of Fe is that existance cannot be reduced to introjection of social input an norms. Accountability (to others - and to oneself) comes from an ontological core that must always be beyond what others feel or think and so the fields the Fe naturally harvests for input will never yield the proper ontological nutrition. Persons relying solely on Fe will experience no real sense of being and that is precisely why other N-types are so distrustful of it.
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  6. #46
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Bluewing while you have previously been spot on in your critique of feelers (and indeed, other types) I think you are hammering Fe harder over the head than it actually deserves, or at the very least charging ENFJs with typical ESFJ shortcommings.

    proteanmix, the central problem of Fe is that existance cannot be reduced to introjection of social input an norms. Accountability (to others - and to oneself) comes from an ontological core that must always be beyond what others feel or think and so the fields the Fe naturally harvests for input will never yield the proper ontological nutrition. Persons relying solely on Fe will experience no real sense of being and that is precisely why other N-types are so distrustful of it.
    I was only talking about neurotic Fe. It is far more common among ESFJs than ENFJs because Ni is more internally focused.

    Your second paragraph is cogent, however we can bring the same charge against other extroverted functions, like Te and Ne. Tes would likely be in danger of focusing too much on what others think and what the dominant authorities preach to the point where their own thoughts dont matter. And Nes could be so intensely focused on the perceptions of others that they forget about their own ideas.

    Like Voltaire for instance. He was no original thinker, all he did was connect ideas of others and shape them into projects that he'd envision in the external world. He never came up with anything of his own or had an internally founded vision, he just bounced around the visions of others trying to tie them together and almost always his goals were externally focused and not other worldly as that of the Nis. He never had any sound opinions of his own, certainly if you asked him for his personal opinions he'd answer you, but really those ideas wouldn't be original, he just combined many of the things he heard others say and erected a design of his own upon them.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    You have to consider the group you are talking to. Fe is useful for making everyone feel included in some sort of social group. Unfortunately for people who are unusual Fe can make them feel even more excluded.
    I think a stronger way of putting this is Fe enforces/regulates/creates/glues together group activity and deciding which behaviors will be rewarded with acceptance and which will be subject to disapproval. I also think Te plays a part.

    For the best understanding of the negative side of this group behavior I highly recommend The Undiscovered Self by Carl Jung.

    A quote from page 54:

    ...As the dialectical discussion proceeds, a point is reached where an evaluation of these individual impulses becomes necessary. By that time the patient should have acquired enough certainty of judgment to enable him to act on his own insight and decision, and not from the mere wish to copy convention even if he happens to agree with collective opinion.

    Unless he stands firmly on his own feet, the so called objective values profit him nothing since they then only serve as a substitute for character and so help to suppress his individuality. Naturally, society has an indisputable right to protect itself against arrant subjectivisms, but insofar as society itself is composed of de-individualized persons.

    Let it band together into groups and organizations as much as it likes -- it is just this banding together and the resultant extinction of the individual personality that makes it succumb so readily to a dictator.



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    Unfortunately, this realization does not seem to have penetrated very far and our blindness in this respect is extremely dangerous. People go on blithely organizing and believing in the sovereign remedy of mass action, without the least consciousness of the fact that the most powerful organizations can be maintained only by the greatest ruthlessness of their leaders and the cheapest of slogans...

  8. #48
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    Your second paragraph is cogent, however we can bring the same charge against other extroverted functions, like Te and Ne.
    True. All E's are more susceptible than the I-types in this regard but there's a difference, particularly in the case of Ne, N being, in the words of Myers, "a lightning rod to the unconcious" even when extroverted in nature. If we were called upon to arrange the functions by reverse order of ontological certitude it'd be Fe, Te, Se, Ne ... ending in Ni.

    And Nes could be so intensely focused on the perceptions of others that they forget about their own ideas.
    Rather, think of Ne as a cloud of petrolium: It's highly combustible, but it always needs an outside spark to ignite. The difference between a good and a bad ENxP in this regard is how much of an outside prod the ENxP will need in order to "go off", letting her own ideas take over, but the initial spark always needs to come from outside. Depending on the genius of the ENxP, this spark can consist of anything from reading two books and fusing the essential ideas therein together (weak originality) to the perception of a madeleine cake (strong originality).

    I agree that the "philosophy" of Voltaire is an example former. He reminds me of the work I do when I feel the least original and does so constantly. I hear that he's eminent in terms of style though - a pity I don't do French.
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  9. #49
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    True. All E's are more susceptible than the I-types in this regard but there's a difference, particularly in the case of Ne, N being, in the words of Myers, "a lightning rod to the unconcious" even when extroverted in nature. If we were called upon to arrange the functions by reverse order of ontological certitude it'd be Fe, Te, Se, Ne ... ending in Ni.



    Rather, think of Ne as a cloud of petrolium: It's highly combustible, but it always needs an outside spark to ignite. The difference between a good and a bad ENxP in this regard is how much of an outside prod the ENxP will need in order to "go off", letting her own ideas take over, but the initial spark always needs to come from outside. Depending on the genius of the ENxP, this spark can consist of anything from reading two books and fusing the essential ideas therein together (weak originality) to the perception of a madeleine cake (strong originality).

    I agree that the "philosophy" of Voltaire is an example former. He reminds me of the work I do when I feel the least original and does so constantly. I hear that he's eminent in terms of style though - a pity I don't do French.

    Yes, Voltaire was an exquisite stylist.

    If we were called upon to arrange the functions by reverse order of ontological certitude it'd be Fe, Te, Se, Ne ... ending in Ni.

    Ontological certitude..yes..Ni would be last..devalues the object the most. Although the problem we've confronted here is that of Fe's promoting society over the individual. Fe, indeed is the most collectivist function, though Ti is the most individualistic. It is more intensely internally focused than Ni, and its tough-minded aspect minimizes the potential problems Fi's incurr of going out of their way to please others.

    Not sure what you meant by ontological certitude..reverse order..so you're saying that Nis are most keenly aware of their inner ground? I'd argue that Tis are, the minds of Nis often drift, whilst Tis are almost always certain of their inner principles. They slide around less than Fis, again, because they tend to be tough-minded.

    That is the order I'd place them in..

    Ti-Ne
    Fi-Ne
    Ni-Te
    Ni-Fe
    Ne-Ti
    Ne-Fi
    Te-Ni
    Fe-Ni
    Ti-Se
    Fi-Se
    Si-Te
    Si-Fe
    Te-Si
    Fe-Si
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  10. #50
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    True. All E's are more susceptible than the I-types in this regard but there's a difference, particularly in the case of Ne, N being, in the words of Myers, "a lightning rod to the unconcious" even when extroverted in nature. If we were called upon to arrange the functions by reverse order of ontological certitude it'd be Fe, Te, Se, Ne ... ending in Ni.
    Actually I've read it as Se, Si, Ne, Ni, Te, Ti, Fe, Fi (is this what you mean by ontological certitude?)

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