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  1. #21
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What is the alternative to this? I guess people think of Fe as pop music, if it has broad appeal there's no way it can actually be any good.
    I wouldn't say "alternative". It's just a matter of maturation. XNFJs in particular are clever, kind people who genuinely do want people to feel accepted and at ease. From what I've seen, as they get older they begin to realize that, to paraphrase Jennifer, one size does not, in fact, fit all, and they tailor their approach to be more inclusive. (Horrible pun unintended, I assure you.)

    From the opposite end, we INTXs also mellow with age and learn that everyone is not, in fact, out to dupe us.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

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  2. #22
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaveri View Post
    I suppose that fuller appreciation for Fe would be found in collectivistic people and cultures more likely than us mostly individualistic users of the Internet.

    I believe that Jennifer got it right (although her description favours Fi and someone else could put it in a way that favours Fe).

    Personally I can see good and bad in both Fi and Fe, although it seems to me that Fi is like a more developped version of Fe. I was going to explain this intuition of me just now, but it's difficult to put into words. Besides, Jennifer and BlueWing have already written things that I agree with.

    Often I find fiction that focuses on primitive, unaware and very seriously-taken Fe fascinating. That is to say, fiction that focuses on social games from an insightful viewpoint.

    Of course, Fi can also be used in bad, selfish ways (ie "I don't like that person and it doesn't feel right to be nice to him, so I don't have to be nice to him, even if he didn't do anything wrong and is devastated by my rudeness").
    A child must be taught to take into consideration the wants and needs of others, it's not something that comes natural think two year olds. It's easier for people to be selfish than altruistic. If Fe is a primitive version of Fi then I think this would be switched around.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
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    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaveri View Post
    I believe that Jennifer got it right (although her description favours Fi and someone else could put it in a way that favours Fe).
    I'm sorry if it came across that way. That's not how I meant it at all; I think Fe has real value and is as valid a function as Fi. I think INTPs (having Fe as an inferior) end up suffering a lot more friction from Fe than some other types early on, so maybe some of that was coming out... I had to learn to value Fe, where at one time I found it oppressive.

    Of course, Fi can also be used in bad, selfish ways (ie "I don't like that person and it doesn't feel right to be nice to him, so I don't have to be nice to him, even if he didn't do anything wrong and is devastated by my rudeness").
    Exactly. I've seen that happen -- an INFP just takes poorly to someone right away, or someone does something that runs cross-current to one of their particular values, and they immediately have a very judgmental response, almost like a personal grudge, and they have to take some time to back off and consider WHY the other person might be doing what they're doing... and realize perhaps in this case their value was not as badly violated as they thought, or perhaps another important value was in conflict with theirs and so the action wasn't as bad.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    A child must be taught to take into consideration the wants and needs of others, it's not something that comes natural think two year olds. It's easier for people to be selfish than altruistic. If Fe is a primitive version of Fi then I think this would be switched around.
    Fe needs instructions on how to figure out how others feel. Fe goes about how to extrapolate the feelings of others based on their actions, whilst Fi is able to do it more subtly. By being picking up the unconscious cues people yield. Fes need more guidance to learn how to genuinely care for others than Fis. To Fis it comes only as naturally as critical thinking for Tis. Tes will always be there to tell you what to do, but as for having substance..ehh not so much..solve superficial problems..any day..solve complex problems..leave that to the Tis...unless they've developed their Introverted function.

    Fi children are naturally more concerned with figuring out people's feelings and doing what they need to do in order to take care of them, whilst the Fe will only have the external standard in mind. Only do what is necessary in order to win the approval of others, you dont actually have to feel authentic. Thats at least how it goes with the Fe children. INFJs have less of a problem with this because they are naturally more in tune with the introverted side.

    The goal of F is to be sensitive, and be in tune with personal values, not just do good deeds. Fi first obtains sensitivity and a clear vision of their own values and then goes on to do good deeds, but only after sincerity of motives has been ensured of. Fe is less concerned with developing inner depth, and only concerned with finding just enough sensitivity to meet the external standard. Fi is the more 'advanced version' because it runs deeper.

    Same as with Ti/Te. The goal of T is to solve problems. Ti is concerned with having things figured out internally. Whilst Te is only concerned with being just analytical enough to meet the external criteria. Ti runs deeper than Te.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #25
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaveri View Post

    Of course, Fi can also be used in bad, selfish ways (ie "I don't like that person and it doesn't feel right to be nice to him, so I don't have to be nice to him, even if he didn't do anything wrong and is devastated by my rudeness").

    True, but I usually find those instant reactions to be spot on, if I feel badly in my reaction to someone it is because my gut instinct is telling me to stay away, having ignored it before and done like jennifer said (back off evaluate and give another chance) I now know you ignore that gut feeling at your own peril as it is always right. The bad feeling ones always hurt you later in some way. It's a warning lol.

    Ok sorry, back on proper topic.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  6. #26
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Exactly. I've seen that happen -- an INFP just takes poorly to someone right away, or someone does something that runs cross-current to one of their particular values, and they immediately have a very judgmental response, almost like a personal grudge, and they have to take some time to back off and consider WHY the other person might be doing what they're doing... and realize perhaps in this case their value was not as badly violated as they thought, or perhaps another important value was in conflict with theirs and so the action wasn't as bad.
    This is part of my point. Fi values are completely subjective and up to whim of that particular person. If they jive with larger cultural values then fine, but if not...? Their values aren't inherently any better, noble, or capable of creating connections than Fe.

    Even if Fe is superficial (which it completely has the capability of being as do other functions) at least can be checked to a certain point, yes yes against the dreaded SOCIETY. If you don't like a person, you can't always act on that dislike. Fe, at it's most banal, keeps people civil with each other. That has to count for something. Fi I think would tell you to do as you please.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #27
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This is part of my point. Fi values are completely subjective and up to whim of that particular person. If they jive with larger cultural values then fine, but if not...? Their values aren't inherently any better, noble, or capable of creating connections than Fe.

    Even if Fe is superficial (which it completely has the capability of being as do other functions) at least can be checked to a certain point, yes yes against the dreaded SOCIETY. If you don't like a person, you can't always act on that dislike. Fe, at it's most banal, keeps people civil with each other. That has to count for something. Fi I think would tell you to do as you please.

    Fi wouldnt tell you to do as you please. Fi is very introspective and is in tune with human nature. If you have personal values that endorse, lying, backstabbing, manipulating, the Fi would soon rebuff them and keep searching for something superior. Fi never gets settled down, the search for better values is a perennial quest. Whilst Fe wants to do the opposite. Find a society with clearly enforced values to settle into and never question them again.

    Just like a Te would want to have a worldview that does not need to be questioned later. Whilst Ti finds the process of questioning in itself to be of great satisfaction.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  8. #28
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Fe needs instructions on how to figure out how others feel. Fe goes about how to extrapolate the feelings of others based on their actions, whilst Fi is able to do it more subtly. By being picking up the unconscious cues people yield. Fes need more guidance to learn how to genuinely care for others than Fis. To Fis it comes only as naturally as critical thinking for Tis. Tes will always be there to tell you what to do, but as for having substance..ehh not so much..solve superficial problems..any day..solve complex problems..leave that to the Tis...unless they've developed their Introverted function.

    Fi children are naturally more concerned with figuring out people's feelings and doing what they need to do in order to take care of them, whilst the Fe will only have the external standard in mind. Only do what is necessary in order to win the approval of others, you dont actually have to feel authentic. Thats at least how it goes with the Fe children. INFJs have less of a problem with this because they are naturally more in tune with the introverted side.

    The goal of F is to be sensitive, and be in tune with personal values, not just do good deeds. Fi first obtains sensitivity and a clear vision of their own values and then goes on to do good deeds, but only after sincerity of motives has been ensured of. Fe is less concerned with developing inner depth, and only concerned with finding just enough sensitivity to meet the external standard. Fi is the more 'advanced version' because it runs deeper.

    Same as with Ti/Te. The goal of T is to solve problems. Ti is concerned with having things figured out internally. Whilst Te is only concerned with being just analytical enough to meet the external criteria. Ti runs deeper than Te.
    You keep saying "good deeds" as if Fe isn't concerned at all about the individual that's receiving the deed, only the deed itself. This is why I don't bother to speak with you about this. Your mind is made up.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #29
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    My mind is never made up. I find the idea of closure abhorrent.

    Fes with a well developed introverted side can have great concern for the individual..but untill their introverted side is developed..they will only see the roles that people play..and not the individuals behind them. They do good deeds only because their role prescribes such activities, for no other reason..and again..cant stress this any more intensely..this will only change after the Introverted Function has become stronger..NFJs have an edge on this over SFJs because Ni offers greater potential for depth.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    This is part of my point. Fi values are completely subjective and up to whim of that particular person. If they jive with larger cultural values then fine, but if not...? Their values aren't inherently any better, noble, or capable of creating connections than Fe.

    Even if Fe is superficial (which it completely has the capability of being as do other functions) at least can be checked to a certain point, yes yes against the dreaded SOCIETY. If you don't like a person, you can't always act on that dislike. Fe, at it's most banal, keeps people civil with each other. That has to count for something. Fi I think would tell you to do as you please.
    I don't think I've disagreed with this, nor have I used words like shallow or fake to describe Fe (although some others seem to be more negative towards Fe as a whole).

    But I think you are not really comparing the style of interaction when someone uses Fe versus Fi. That's what I am trying to describe and pinpoint here -- the inherent NATURE of the interactions. They're very different.

    Fe is more formalized; Fi is more personal. This is not a value judgment of any sort, it's simply descriptive of the interaction involved.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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