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  1. #101
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Just stay away from the weasels and I won't have to hurt you.
    [crunch!]

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    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #102
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    In reviewing this thread, there are a couple of important points that seemed worth addressing.

    1. Where does the assumption that Fe is artificial come from? Even though it can include certain 'niceties', assuming that Fe by nature is not genuine feeling is equivalent to saying that Te is not actual thinking, Ne is only feigned intuition, and Se is a false, surface type of sensing. If Fe is considered equivalent within the system, then it is necessary to hold that it is as genuine as any other function. Quite frankly i know this to be the case. Someone with strong Fe is more likely to actually mean it when they say the nicety. The completely false use of pleasantries is a function of tradition or strategy which would fall under the domain of Sensing and Thinking (whose sincere attributes are likewise in the domain of Sensing and Thinking)

    I propose that false external feeling is the result of the appearance of feeing being communicated through another function. Just as a Feeling function can falsely accept someone's thinking to keep the peace, so a Thinking (or other function) can falsify feeling for a strategized result. Perhaps these false forms of extroverted feeling should not be imposed on those whose primary way of processing information is Fe. Which leads me to my next point.

    2. Individuals whose primary and secondary functions are Fe process readily the emotions of the external world. For this reason they are very possibly the most likely people to internalize emotional negativity. Ironically enough, this thread that often disses Fe as false, deceptive, hurtful, etc., has some potential to be a prime example of hurtful and/or false Fe. It is possible that a strongly Fe person is going to be the most sensitive to the outside world of negativity, including a thread like this. People are tough also, but this is an angle that i don't believe has been considered, so it seemed worth airing it out.

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  3. #103
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Yes, Toonia that's exactly what I was getting at!! I don't understand why people conceive of Fe this way.

    ETA: When I compliment someone or do something for someone it's not just because it's what I'm "supposed" to do. I constantly wrestle with the genuineness of my actions because I don't want to do something that is fake, false, and filled with artifice. This is why I didn't understand people saying that Fi is more soulful somehow because it's not standardidized. This is also why I asked if people distrusted Fe because it's more "promiscuous" than Fi (freely shared with most people).
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  4. #104
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Default The beauty of Fe

    Here are examples of the most distilled beauty of pure Fe.





    Without the interruptions of other processes, the heart of Fe is very immediate, spontaneous, honest, heartfelt, and free. It readily connects to the feelings of others around on 'their' terms, providing at times a clear, accurate empathy. Alone, it hasn't complex, deep agendas, but a desire to feel and be felt. Alone it embraces the feeling of the moment completely and without judgment.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  5. #105
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    1. Where does the assumption that Fe is artificial come from? Even though it can include certain 'niceties', assuming that Fe by nature is not genuine feeling is equivalent to saying that Te is not actual thinking, Ne is only feigned intuition, and Se is a false, surface type of sensing. If Fe is considered equivalent within the system, then it is necessary to hold that it is as genuine as any other function.
    ! Very good way to explain it; the analogies have to hold true if the pattern is applied evenly throughout the system.


    The completely false use of pleasantries is a function of tradition or strategy which would fall under the domain of Sensing and Thinking (whose sincere attributes are likewise in the domain of Sensing and Thinking)
    So you are suggesting that some of the apparent misuse of Fe would be by Sensing Thinkers / Thinking Sensors? That it is merely trying to emulate Fe but failing, because it is merely about the rules and misses the core feelings?

    I propose that false external feeling is the result of the appearance of feeing being communicated through another function. Just as a Feeling function can falsely accept someone's thinking to keep the peace, so a Thinking (or other function) can falsify feeling for a strategized result. Perhaps these false forms of extroverted feeling should not be imposed on those whose primary way of processing information is Fe.
    Have you worked out any of the specifics yet, Toonia? It sounds like a promising avenue to explore.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #106
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So you are suggesting that some of the apparent misuse of Fe would be by Sensing Thinkers / Thinking Sensors? That it is merely trying to emulate Fe but failing, because it is merely about the rules and misses the core feelings?
    I'd say Ts in general when it's not genuine. Why confine it to STs?
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #107
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yes, Toonia that's exactly what I was getting at!! I don't understand why people conceive of Fe this way.
    Maybe because those of us who do not have Fe as a primary or secondary function can learn to emulate the behavior but never internalize the empathetic priority that makes the behavior come so naturally to you? That's my guess.

  8. #108
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'd say Ts in general when it's not genuine. Why confine it to STs?
    I don't know. Is there a reason to, or is there a distinction between S/N that needs to be explored? (Did you have any reason to focus on Sensing, Toonia, in your post?)

    I will think about it more and see what pops up in the mental E-ZBake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Maybe because those of us who do not have Fe as a primary or secondary function can learn to emulate the behavior but never internalize the empathetic priority that makes the behavior come so naturally to you? That's my guess.
    That is what it feels like to me -- that I am accessing Fe by leaping through Ne. I imagine what it would be like to be in someone's shoes, mentally (it's an impersonal process), and then the feelings come. I know I don't start with the feelings.

    (Which frustrates me. I wish I could feel bad for people instinctively, as my first response; but I have to get there the "back way.")
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    But the act of buying a cake to celebrate someone's birthday is an Fe convention. If someone is not given a cake in our culture, it can *really* come across as "you don't care about me at all." And this is an arbitrary symbol, because there have been cultures where cakes are not used to celebrate birthdays, but OTHER symbols are used to suggest that one is an accepted member of the family or community and cared about.

    An FJ is much more liable to buy/make the cake without thinking twice about it, and feel bad if they do not provide one even if the person tells them it's okay not to get one. An FP is probably more liable to find out whether the person even wants a birthday cake and more prone to be willing to substitute something different (ex: A trip to the bowling alley or some other favorite food in place of cake) *if* the person explicitly requests it. FJs can do this as well, but they don't tend to grasp it as well. (There can be exceptions, I am just describing the patterns I see.)

    Does that make more sense?

    .
    As a Fe person, I would make the cake myself exactly the way I knew the person would like it. I'd probably add a personalized aspect of it - use their favorite colors, remember to not use an ingrediant they didn't like, etc etc. I don't do this for everyone - though I am introverted by nature - but it would be automatic for someone close to me. However, if I was invited to a party and it was appropriate to bring a cake then I would certainly bring one & probably research a bit to see what kind of cake the host liked. The key for me is that I could care less about the kind of cake that I would prefer, instead I am going to make them the cake that they would prefer - even if I didn't like cake at all!

    One clue to Fe is the word "appropriate". I've noticed the use of this word in not only the INFJ, but also in other types where Fe is preferred over Fi - including an ESTP and INTP.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yes, Toonia that's exactly what I was getting at!! I don't understand why people conceive of Fe this way.

    ETA: When I compliment someone or do something for someone it's not just because it's what I'm "supposed" to do. I constantly wrestle with the genuineness of my actions because I don't want to do something that is fake, false, and filled with artifice. This is why I didn't understand people saying that Fi is more soulful somehow because it's not standardidized. This is also why I asked if people distrusted Fe because it's more "promiscuous" than Fi (freely shared with most people).
    I am simply trying to answer the question, since it is puzzling to me too.

    I know a girl who is often accused of being fake. I'm pretty sure she's an ESFJ. She is accused of being fake by some of her relatives (INFP and ENTP I think), and accused of being dumb by her brother(an ISTP, I believe). She is not at all dumb, and has an astounding memory, but she seems to have a tendency to tune out when people discuss technical things, though her favorite subjects were math and biology in school.

    She smiles a lot (and it often seems fake, even to me) and is fairly jovial, and can fool people who don't know her well (and more oblivious ones who do) into thinking nothing weird is going on inside her, but her close (and more observant) friends and family can see right through the smiles and joviality to sense something else. She calls it "making an effort," but others see it as fake. I personally find it hard to know when she is actually in a good mood and when she is not, and the reason is, quite simply, because she is "making an effort".

    Perhaps fake is not the right word?

    I have no clue how close I came to hitting the crux of the issue, but that is my guess. Do you think that example is something Fe's in general can identify with?

    I think John Kerry was an Fe (my guess is xNFJ) and he lost the election due to a reputation of being fake, whether he was fake or not.

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