ESTP vs ENTP - the value system

[substitute]

I have a couple of questions for EXTPs:

What does it take for you to trust someone and show your 'vulnerable' side? And for that matter, when someone decides to take a leap of faith and trust you, do you perceive it as vulnerability? And if so, how do you respond to this vulnerability? Are you truly Darwinian about it and consider it a mistake on the part of the others and use it to your advantage? Or are you endeared by it and feel a need to protect that person, feel special even that they chose to open up to you?

Speaking personally, to me it makes me feel incredibly insecure when I hear those familiar complaints from a loved one, it's like saying I'm not good enough, that because I can't open up in the desired time frame or under the expected promptings, I'm making you unhappy. And therefore, you're only happy with me if I try really hard and rush myself into giving you a key to the parts of my mind that are for me alone, for your benefit - and moreover, that my failure to do so is taken by you as my distrusting you, when in fact it's not about you at all. It's about whether I can bear to hear myself say aloud some of those things - things that I don't like to even confide in myself. Whilst I can have moments like that with people I trust and feel secure with, it's just not who I am on a daily basis. To feel like this is a let-down for you makes me feel like I'm on a time limit, like I'm on trial, and if I don't come up with the goods then you'll leave. And that makes me feel insecure and that makes me not trust you to not abandon me, and that makes me not want to take the risk of investing emotionally in you. It also makes me feel like I have no privacy from you, that you want to pry into the parts of me, that you feel you have a right to. And that makes me feel violated and suffocated, and my response will invariably be defiance, rebellion, and strengthening of those barriers to keep those parts of myself, those emotions that I'm so little familiar with myself, from your prying eyes and value judgements, until I've had time to sort them out myself in my own head.

So, what would it take to get an ENTP to open up to you? Simple: quit asking him to, and quit caring whether he does or not. Then he will feel like you love and accept him and will stay with him for who he is, and not on condition that he becomes something else, and he'll start to open up to you, and you can just take it as it is, then move on.

 

[Kasper]

Again, I'd say you're deeply biased and mistaken.

Pretty much.

What does it take for you to trust someone and show your 'vulnerable' side?

My answer is both a little and a lot, I trust easily but I’ll test people with how much I show them, if they don’t do anything that makes me recoil I’ll reveal more of my vulnerability bit by bit. It has to be two-sided though, things already mentioned like mutual trust, acceptance and respect are key. For me to show the full extent of my vulnerable to one person would take a hell of a lot, it’s not an easy thing for me to do, those who are able to get me to do that are the people I would die for.

And for that matter, when someone decides to take a leap of faith and trust you, do you perceive it as vulnerability? And if so, how do you respond to this vulnerability?

No, I don't. If someone trusts me I do what I can to keep that trust but I don’t perceive them as vulnerable because of it.

Are you truly Darwinian about it and consider it a mistake on the part of the others and use it to your advantage? Or are you endeared by it and feel a need to protect that person, feel special even that they chose to open up to you?

I would never use it against someone but I wouldn't necessarily feel the need to protect them, I push most people to reveal things they wouldn't normally feel comfortable doing so having people trust me and reveal their vulnerabilities isn’t so unusual, I'd only feel close and protective of someone if it was a two-way thing. If you open up to me but I never do the same with you then I may consider you a friend, even a really good one but I could walk away from the friendship without too much concern as I’m holding back my deeper thoughts and emotions.

 

[Amargith]

Speaking personally, to me it makes me feel incredibly insecure when I hear those familiar complaints from a loved one, it's like saying I'm not good enough, that because I can't open up in the desired time frame or under the expected promptings, I'm making you unhappy. And therefore, you're only happy with me if I try really hard and rush myself into giving you a key to the parts of my mind that are for me alone, for your benefit - and moreover, that my failure to do so is taken by you as my distrusting you, when in fact it's not about you at all. It's about whether I can bear to hear myself say aloud some of those things - things that I don't like to even confide in myself. Whilst I can have moments like that with people I trust and feel secure with, it's just not who I am on a daily basis. To feel like this is a let-down for you makes me feel like I'm on a time limit, like I'm on trial, and if I don't come up with the goods then you'll leave. And that makes me feel insecure and that makes me not trust you to not abandon me, and that makes me not want to take the risk of investing emotionally in you. It also makes me feel like I have no privacy from you, that you want to pry into the parts of me, that you feel you have a right to. And that makes me feel violated and suffocated, and my response will invariably be defiance, rebellion, and strengthening of those barriers to keep those parts of myself, those emotions that I'm so little familiar with myself, from your prying eyes and value judgements, until I've had time to sort them out myself in my own head.

So, what would it take to get an ENTP to open up to you? Simple: quit asking him to, and quit caring whether he does or not. Then he will feel like you love and accept him and will stay with him for who he is, and not on condition that he becomes something else, and he'll start to open up to you, and you can just take it as it is, then move on.

*smiles* I was merely seeking understanding, this is not about a specific ENTP in my life. I can see that you have had some bad experiences with this, and I'll admit, I've had my share as well, hence my attempt at understanding better.


To all of you who have answered me, I wanna thank you. You've given me a lot to think about.

 

[Fluffywolf]

It's universal knowledge that the best way to form respect, trust and understanding /opening up is by allowing each other to be their selves.

Relates to all types, in my opinion.

 

[MetalWounds]

What does it take for you to trust someone and show your 'vulnerable' side?

An uncommon connection with someone. It can be immediate or develop over a long period of time. I think a lot of EXTPs hold back little pieces of themselves, so that if things go the wrong way, they won't be completely destroyed by it.

And for that matter, when someone decides to take a leap of faith and trust you, do you perceive it as vulnerability? And if so, how do you respond to this vulnerability?

Sometimes it's a great honor, and I feel the need to uphold that trust. Other times when I'm feeling over cumbered and possibly burdened I might drop their trust on purpose. Like someone hands you a very expensive Antique and you just drop it, move on and be happy that it's not on your conscience.

Are you truly Darwinian about it and consider it a mistake on the part of the others and use it to your advantage? Or are you endeared by it and feel a need to protect that person, feel special even that they chose to open up to you?

If that person really matters, there would be a much stronger desire to protect those vulnerabilities, like I was protecting a piece of myself.

 

[simulatedworld]

so, its entp style to make fun of others, but not entp style to laugh about one self? i have overestimated you. i am deeply sorry.

Depends on how insecure the ENTP you're talking to is. ^_^

Anyway, the person you describe in the OP sounds much closer to the ESTP stereotype than the ENTP one. Of course many actual ESTP people don't subscribe to them, but the philosophies you laid out are much more associated with ESTP than with ENTP...there's not a whole lot of ENTP stuff in there at all.

ESTP and ENTP are actually pretty different. They can appear pretty similar on the surface because they're both bluntly aggressive without always realizing it, and they both tend to enjoy competition and gamemanship.

But their internal motivations are quite different--N/S is typically considered the biggest divide. (Supposedly ENTP is dominant Ne/inferior Si and ESTP is dominant Se/inferior Ni, so there's a big difference in priorities here.)

I tend to think ENTPs are more similar to ENFP and INTP (probably also INTJ) than to ESTP, though.

 

[Nocapszy]

Speaking personally, to me it makes me feel incredibly insecure when I hear those familiar complaints from a loved one, it's like saying I'm not good enough, that because I can't open up in the desired time frame or under the expected promptings, I'm making you unhappy. And therefore, you're only happy with me if I try really hard and rush myself into giving you a key to the parts of my mind that are for me alone, for your benefit - and moreover, that my failure to do so is taken by you as my distrusting you, when in fact it's not about you at all.

And further It's about whether I can bear to hear myself say aloud some of those things - things that I don't like to even confide in myself.[/quote]And further, sometimes guys, believe it or not, there's just nothing there.
We do give off what seems to be omniscience, but... well... we can't think of everything.

Most of the time I'm accused of using smartass comments for deflecting or avoiding because of sensitivity, and maybe that's true (I'll never tell) but really... sometimes it's just because I never thought about it and don't have an opinion.

So let off it.

Whilst I can have moments like that with people I trust and feel secure with, it's just not who I am on a daily basis. To feel like this is a let-down for you makes me feel like I'm on a time limit, like I'm on trial, and if I don't come up with the goods then you'll leave. And that makes me feel insecure and that makes me not trust you to not abandon me, and that makes me not want to take the risk of investing emotionally in you.

The ol' kick 'em while they're down routine?

It also makes me feel like I have no privacy from you, that you want to pry into the parts of me, that you feel you have a right to. And that makes me feel violated and suffocated, and my response will invariably be defiance, rebellion, and strengthening of those barriers to keep those parts of myself, those emotions that I'm so little familiar with myself, from your prying eyes and value judgements, until I've had time to sort them out myself in my own head.

Pay attention to this part Am.

I'm not certain I'd put it so poetically... about suffocation and violation (*shrugs wrist* ?), but my reactions are similar.

 

[Amargith]

duly noted.