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  1. #11
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    it makes sense its just not worth looking into. wont explain that much except how the functions work
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  2. #12
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I see.

    And we'd rather not delve too deeply into function workings. We may find hamsters.


    The other thing is, if I were able to do Ne, I wouldn't get that blank "I'm not here" thing that happens so often. Talking to people who don't get off on the weird things Ni wills me to throw out into conversation, I can keep going through the motions for quite a while, but it's really rather like being a semi-conscious phone answering machine. And when it's done it's really like it never happened. But I could switch to Ne if it were as good as the cog.func test says. Or am I just being really obstreperous about my preferred function use? (Or mixing up introversion with perceived lack of alt.functions.)


    And on the, like, what--fifth hand?--a healthy person functioning normally in an environment suited to him will presumably stick with his function preferences. If the environment goes ahead and calls for something a little more, he may use those functions to mimic other functions. Then if the environment ramps up the stress, he may be forced to actually use the shadows. The real stress is being forced out of normal function usage.

    But it still remains a question: why is using the shadows stressful?

    And if it is, how can the cognitive functions tests go ahead and show things like Ni>Ne>Te>Ti>Fi for an INTJ?

    The whole thing may be explained just by observing that cognitive functions tests are supposed to work for everyone. They ring up everything they possibly can, and the real result for any Xi/Xe is, whichever one comes out strongest is the one you really do. If the hamster's dead, you don't count the buckshot in the wall that missed.


    Preferences... how much choice is there really?

  3. #13
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I see.

    And we'd rather not delve too deeply into function workings. We may find hamsters.
    NO! We should study the hamsters... those are important too.

    The other thing is, if I were able to do Ne, I wouldn't get that blank "I'm not here" thing that happens so often. Talking to people who don't get off on the weird things Ni wills me to throw out into conversation, I can keep going through the motions for quite a while, but it's really rather like being a semi-conscious phone answering machine. And when it's done it's really like it never happened. But I could switch to Ne if it were as good as the cog.func test says. Or am I just being really obstreperous about my preferred function use? (Or mixing up introversion with perceived lack of alt.functions.)
    What you're referring to is "Ne mimicry". I find that, in general, Ni takes time to process all the parameters before it provides you with an answer. You have a problem in your head and it sits there for a while until you suddenly get that insightful solution. However for areas you're familiar with, as you said, Ni has already done some processing of this problem in the past. So it's just a matter of adapting an old pattern to fit the new problem. That takes less work and as a result you get "Ne" response times... at the snap of your fingers. So it seems to other people that you're operating on Ne, when you know that it's really Ni.

    The true Ne for me is a more vague surface thing. The idea just spontaneously come to me, typically it's visual based. There's no sitting about trying to define the "meaning" of something. The image is just right there. It's like seeing moving cars casting interesting pattern of shadows under the streetlights and wanting to use that pattern of shadows for a visual art piece. Very what you see is what you use. There's only the concern for shapes and textures and nothing about the meaning or implication behind moving shadows or cars or streetlights. I'm sure that's not the only thing an NP will use Ne for, but it's how I use my shadow Ne.

    But it still remains a question: why is using the shadows stressful?
    Unfamiliarity with its uses... lack of practice means you need to concentrate a lot to use it. That makes it tiring to use for extended periods. Don't forget you're also fighting to suppress the natural tendency for your dominant and auxiliary functions to take over. That also makes it more difficult.

    And if it is, how can the cognitive functions tests go ahead and show things like Ni>Ne>Te>Ti>Fi for an INTJ?
    The pattern isn't Ni > Ne > Ti > Fi.... Function development varies from person to person. But for most well developed individuals, I found the pattern to be closer to Ni > Ti > Ne, Fi > Se, Te >> Fe >> Si

    The whole thing may be explained just by observing that cognitive functions tests are supposed to work for everyone. They ring up everything they possibly can, and the real result for any Xi/Xe is, whichever one comes out strongest is the one you really do. If the hamster's dead, you don't count the buckshot in the wall that missed.
    The cognitive function tests only provides a broad indicator for the possible function usage. Ni and Ne are the two that received the worse descriptions. What they suggest should be an Ne function can actually be served using Ni. The question about brainstorming for example. Ni likes to brainstorm too... it's just that it takes a different approach to it than Ne.
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  4. #14
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    The true Ne for me is a more vague surface thing. The idea just spontaneously come to me, typically it's visual based. There's no sitting about trying to define the "meaning" of something. The image is just right there. It's like seeing moving cars casting interesting pattern of shadows under the streetlights and wanting to use that pattern of shadows for a visual art piece. Very what you see is what you use. There's only the concern for shapes and textures and nothing about the meaning or implication behind moving shadows or cars or streetlights. I'm sure that's not the only thing an NP will use Ne for, but it's how I use my shadow Ne.
    That's not Se? Sounds like Se.

    I use my shadow Ne for spotting ENFPs.

    I'll be on the street saying "hamster" to passers-by and meeting Ne-users and policemen.

  5. #15
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    That's not Se? Sounds like Se.

    I use my shadow Ne for spotting ENFPs.

    I'll be on the street saying "hamster" to passers-by and meeting Ne-users and policemen.
    No, not Se... I wasn't focusing on the actual outline of the shadows... What I saw was the triple shadow outlined from the set of streetlights. It's mostly the idea of that. Of course you can say it's simply Se + Ni but it doesn't seem like Ni to me because the approach was different.
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