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  1. #11
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I've developed a rather subjective way of looking at the J/P dichotomy. The way I see J is as being less flexible about the way you deal with things. It doesn't really matter if you're organized, as much as it's about your need to have a certain structure in the way you behave. For instance, my home is usually a mess unless there's a possibility I might have people over, but I keep my definitions, rules, and ideas in good order. Also, I'm quite particular about my spelling and punctuation. That's another common J trait.

    Lastly, I'd like to introduce you to an idea that a friend of mine had. He believed that J's think symbolically, which would mean through words/numbers/icons. P's on the other hand, supposedly think graphically/visually, which would explain to me why their thoughts seem to be less fixed, like a movie that changes scenes from one moment to the next, and mine are arranged more like a book. I can't verify this idea, but it seems at least plausible, since interpreting reality through words, which point to things in a more specific way than pictures, would lead to slightly more predictable and rigid behaviors.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'd be interested in knowing how procedural you are - that is to say, do you follow set procedures, do you not follow them, do you reject them even if they work, how do you deal with them when they don't, do you think you can do better...

    That'd unify a lot of your traits.
    I'm procedural in that I'll follow my own procedures (keeping my workout schedule, etc), but anything imposed on my, I resist. At work, I rarely do things the way I'm "supposed" to.

    Another trait that I have that I thought was J...

    My house is clean. I don't like clutter.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #13
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    If you're trying to figure out if you're ENFP or ENFJ, I'd go with figuring out if you're Fe dominant or Ne dominant.

    Here's some information that may help:

    ENFJ
    Theme is mentoring, leading people to achieve their potential and become more of who they are. Talents lie in empathizing with profound personal insight and influencing others to learn, grow, and develop. Lead using their exceptional communication skills, enthusiasm, and warmth to gain cooperation toward meeting the ideals they hold for the individual or organization. Catalysts who draw out the best in others. Thrive on empathetic connections. Frequently called on to help others with personal problems.

    ENFP
    Theme is inspiration, both of themselves and others. Talents lie in grasping profound significance, revealing truths, and motivating others. Very perceptive of others' hidden motives and purposes. Interested in everything about individuals and their stories as long as they're genuine. Contagious enthusiasm for "causes" that further the good and develop latent potential and the same zeal for disclosing dishonesty and inauthenticity. Frequently moved to enthusiastically communicate their "message."
    When Fe and Ne look alike:

    Ne and Fe often focus on people and their interactions. With Ne, it is the meanings and inferences that come to mind relative to people and their interactions. With Fe, it is the actions that keep people connected or disconnected that matter.
    Here are some definitions of Fe and Ne from the Lenore Thomson Wiki.

    Which one sounds like something you're more comfortable using? How well do you think you use Ni, Se, and Ti? A good way that I've found to establish my EFJness is that I interact with a lot of IFPs. Maybe you should find some IFJ and IFPs and see what your interactions look like with them. With IFPs I see us coming from the opposite sides of the same coin, with IFJs it's more similarity between our thinking and actions.

    When I took the official MBTI I tested ENFP (don't know HOW that happened) and other ENFJs here tested ENFP also. I'm not too familiar with your posts, but sometimes you see a little preachy () as an EFJ would.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #14
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    It's not so much that I'm trying to figure out if I'm an ENFP or ENFJ. The ENFJ descriptions don't fit me nearly as well as ENFP (actually ENTJ fits me better than ENFJ or ENTP). I'm mostly curious about this J/P divide and where I fit.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #15
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's not so much that I'm trying to figure out if I'm an ENFP or ENFJ. The ENFJ descriptions don't fit me nearly as well as ENFP (actually ENTJ fits me better than ENFJ or ENTP). I'm mostly curious about this J/P divide and where I fit.
    You show moderate expression of P traits, but your internal behaviour seems very P. I would rank you on a behavioural scale of about 55-65% P (Expressed) and 65-80% internalised based on your description. You also don't seem to have a large spread of sub-traits, so I believe that it is the lower expression that makes you question what your internalised score is. That is to say that you have some dissonance going on, most likely from trained behaviour.

    (% above me "more than x population") (None of the above has anything to do with MBTI theory either.)

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I was raised in a very SJ family.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I was raised in a very SJ family.
    That would the most likely source of "trained behavioural", as would any event that you thought you could of achieved if you had been more "disciplined", etc. in your youth. (Those two often go together, since upon failure, parents tend to think that their way would of worked, and J's are normally right about that.)

  8. #18
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
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    Lateralus, do you identify with the description of Fi or with that of Fe? Because if you are an ENFP then your secondary function is Fi, and if you are an ENFJ than you have Fe as your primary.

    For example I am sure that I run on Fi and not Fe, and so I know that I am an NTJ.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Razor View Post
    Lateralus, do you identify with the description of Fi or with that of Fe? Because if you are an ENFP then your secondary function is Fi, and if you are an ENFJ than you have Fe as your primary.

    For example I am sure that I run on Fi and not Fe, and so I know that I am an NTJ.
    Definitely Fi, but I don't buy into all the function order stuff with MBTI. When I look at function order lists, it looks to me like they were trying to come up with a neat looking pattern. I don't think function order is as well defined as it's made out to be.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #20
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's not so much that I'm trying to figure out if I'm an ENFP or ENFJ. The ENFJ descriptions don't fit me nearly as well as ENFP (actually ENTJ fits me better than ENFJ or ENTP). I'm mostly curious about this J/P divide and where I fit.
    So are you trying to figure out if you're a ENTJ or ENFP? The J/P would change your typing. If you're confident about being an ENF then that's the difference between ENFJ and ENFP.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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