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Thread: Ni Adrift

  1. #11
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    There may also be an instinct towards a kind of 'unified theory'. I do find within myself the assumption that everything is connected to a whole, a singular concept. The underlying goal of finding the pattern is to find its core. There are glimmers of such occurring. For example, most violating behaviors can be traced back to an inflated sense of entitlement. Whether it is rape, murder, theft, insult, anything, these all result from the same spring, the same basic assumption in the individual. Once these unifying systems are discovered, it brings great freedom because it is reduced back to its essence, or principle, which has the ability to be reapplied in any context.
    That's unusual, even more perplexing. I really don't think that way. For me, it's more like I start with several possibilities related to the subject at hand, but then as I determine the context, I start to methodically eliminate them, until I see exactly what remains, and decide that it makes sense for that context. However, I keep myself open to alternative perspectives, because what's reasonable in one may be different in another. What I do is keep track of all the possible accumulated contexts that interest me, and remember what seems to make sense from within each of them. When I create a new context, I start over again from scratch at deciding what makes sense within it.

    For instance, if I were to discuss "Ni", for instance, that could mean anything. However, when people use it in practice, it could be the first two letters of the word Night, it could be a transposition of the word "in", it could be an unusual way of spelling "nigh" in a riddle, It could be the shorthand for the element Nickel, or it could be shorthand for Introverted Intuition. To determine which it is, I would eliminate possibilities. First, I would see if the surrounding sentence structure made more sense if the letters were transposed. When it doesn't, I eliminate that. While noticing that, I also notice that the sentence is not intended to be a riddle, and eliminate that. That leaves the two shorthand ones. Since this is an MBTI forum and not a chemistry website, I presume that Ni is unlikely to be Nickel. Even if it weren't, the context created by all the other words in the post would have given it away. I also decide that the sort of Ni you discuss is the MBTI definition of Ni, not the Socionic one. In the midst of all this, I'm actually trying to determine exactly what Ni is within that context, and as yet I only have vague, mutable ideas that aren't quite precise enough, but I continually try to refine and explain them, but never knowing how accurate I am, because there are too many differing opinions, and no way to know which is right.

    Also, the amusing thought just crossed my mind that some chemist might have stumbled onto this site, and wondered for a moment why we were all discussing the behavior of Silicon, Nickel, Neon, Selenium, Iron, Titanium, Tellurium, and whether Fi was a new element, and what on earth they had to do with the situations we were discussing.

    Note that I usually don't have to step through all this sequentially in my mind, it usually happens a lot faster and with less work, this was to illustrate my thought process.

  2. #12
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Cool post athenian200

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    For instance, if I were to discuss "Ni", for instance, that could mean anything. However, when people use it in practice, it could be the first two letters of the word Night, it could be a transposition of the word "in", it could be an unusual way of spelling "nigh" in a riddle, It could be the shorthand for the element Nickel, or it could be shorthand for Introverted Intuition. To determine which it is, I would eliminate possibilities. First, I would see if the surrounding sentence structure made more sense if the letters were transposed. When it doesn't, I eliminate that. While noticing that, I also notice that the sentence is not intended to be a riddle, and eliminate that. That leaves the two shorthand ones. Since this is an MBTI forum and not a chemistry website, I presume that Ni is unlikely to be Nickel. Even if it weren't, the context created by all the other words in the post would have given it away. I also decide that the sort of Ni you discuss is the MBTI definition of Ni, not the Socionic one. In the midst of all this, I'm actually trying to determine exactly what Ni is within that context, and as yet I only have vague, mutable ideas that aren't quite precise enough, but I continually try to refine and explain them, but never knowing how accurate I am, because there are too many differing opinions, and no way to know which is right.
    That is a useful example. An example of a unified theory that can be extrapolated from this very example is that these many unrelated concepts, all represented by the letters N-i, implies that humans are at home with representations of ideas that are basically arbitrary in nature. This sheds light on a core aspect of human thought and language. It also bring into question its limitation for meaningful representation. Humans don't have many effective ways to represent an idea that has a strong enough relationship to that idea without an understanding of its context.
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  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    That's unusual, even more perplexing. I really don't think that way. For me, it's more like I start with several possibilities related to the subject at hand, but then as I determine the context, I start to methodically eliminate them, until I see exactly what remains, and decide that it makes sense for that context. However, I keep myself open to alternative perspectives, because what's reasonable in one may be different in another. What I do is keep track of all the possible accumulated contexts that interest me, and remember what seems to make sense from within each of them. When I create a new context, I start over again from scratch at deciding what makes sense within it.
    That reminds me a bit of my description of the "mental identification database" that I use to type people, similar to a fingerprint database, into which I map the key points. I'm comparing to theory AND also to past example/manifestations of type I've witnessed. And I use a tree structure to avoid going through the WHOLE database, I'm drilling down rather than just running a simplistic full-database comparison.

    Meanwhile, once I see something that seems like a potential match, I'm "spinning everything around" in my head to see what contexts exist for the behavior/traits in question and what best explains what I'm looking at. And the more data points I have, the more I can "hone" in. But I am simultaneously looking at a plethora of data points and "spinning them" to see them from all sides, and then finding the solutions that overlaps them all.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Cool post athenian200

    That is a useful example. An example of a unified theory that can be extrapolated from this very example is that these many unrelated concepts, all represented by the letters N-i, implies that humans are at home with representations of ideas that are basically arbitrary in nature. This sheds light on a core aspect of human thought and language. It also bring into question its limitation for meaningful representation. Humans don't have many effective ways to represent an idea that has a strong enough relationship to that idea without an understanding of its context.
    That's a very insightful observation, but my point was that I don't usually try to infer a general principal from all the perspectives (although I can if I need to), but rather try to "zoom in" on one perspective out of of several perspectives, and determine as much about the things within that context as I can. You seem to be applying inductive reasoning, while I seem to be applying deductive reasoning.

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    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Hmm. I can relate a lot to what Toonia has been saying, particularly the unified theory bit. I'm always working to try to get all my ideas to branch off this one underlying idea. I think most of my mental processing time is spent running around in my head tying all the lines to one boat....which can take a while. I mean, I know it's not terribly efficient, but it's just easier to go through every single idea and look at it carefully. Because sometimes I might take part of the idea and not the whole thing...and you never know what's underneath it or inside it. I might miss something! and that would be terrible.

    It's not like my brain is very organised either. I think everything's sort of...scattered everywhere. And it's not as if I'm too lazy to organise, it's that it can't be organised. Nothing can be categorised because every thought is connected, in some way, to every other thought. I just need to make sure everything is tied down so it doesn't float away before I can get to it. Unfortunately, that can cause me to burn out quickly when I'm faced with too much input--information comes in so fast I don't have time to tie it to something. I think that's why I'm forgetful most of the time...there's just too much stuff coming into my brain.

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    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    My mind is like a spider web and my consciousness climbs around looking for what I want, but sometimes it finds something shiny in there and gets distracted. My spider-self will sit there holding an idea up to the light and examining the facets from different angles. Then reality intrudes and I realize that I really need to pee.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    I envision myself walking along the shore of the ocean of Ni, looking for what nice things have washed up today.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

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