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Judgment Problem of Introverted Intuition?

Kephalos

J.M.P.P. R.I.P. B5: RLOAI
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Mar 2, 2009
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687
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INFJ
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5w4
Something has been bothering me about Introverted Intuition – although it could possibly apply also to all types with a dominant perceiving function. Jung describes Introverted Intuitives as experiencing a flow of images and associations, and says that a pure type would stop at perception. However, he does mention that in order to make a moral problem these perceptions some judgment must be developed.

When I pondered upon this I felt I could relate very much to it – often I will have an idea, and it feels certain enough for to me, but still have this urge to justify it even if I can’t. This would not me so much a moral problem for perception but more intellectual. Can anyone else relate to this? Or maybe I simply misread Jung?
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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Jul 22, 2007
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i guess i can relate to your last paragraph, but i am not sure about the connection to whatever jung was trying to get at.

of course, we are perceivers at the core and Fe or Te is very secondary to how we perceive our intelligence, but it cant be omitted, if any kind of action is supposed to occur, and even writing a perspective down is already an action (of integration into a manifested matrix of reference, which is maintained by the judging functions - its that coherent world view -that single picture of everything- that must be carefully protected from a single random impression, while it essentially consists of all the best impressions). this is all pure perceiving, but its nit picky in time. one impression at a time. it needs space: it's inner life must be evoked, to explore its character. is it a good girl or an alien bitch critter.
 

nightning

ish red no longer *sad*
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When I pondered upon this I felt I could relate very much to it – often I will have an idea, and it feels certain enough for to me, but still have this urge to justify it even if I can’t. This would not me so much a moral problem for perception but more intellectual. Can anyone else relate to this? Or maybe I simply misread Jung?

Judgment for what? The validity of your idea? Who are you trying to prove it for? Yourself? Others? If it's for internal consistency then you can say it's tied in with your tertiary Ji functon.

Sometimes it does happen... you feel that something must work in this fashion and to some extent things relating to your self-worth (i.e. having quality ideas and theories that are true or whatever it is that you value) can be affected if you were proven wrong.

That's not really what Jung meant though... It's suppose to be Pi + Je pairing... So Ni + Te in INTJ or Ni + Fe in INFJ. If you have an idea, and you feel that you have to prove it to somebody else... then the contingent judgment will be external. So Je will be involved.
 

527468

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When I pondered upon this I felt I could relate very much to it – often I will have an idea, and it feels certain enough for to me, but still have this urge to justify it even if I can’t. This would not me so much a moral problem for perception but more intellectual. Can anyone else relate to this? Or maybe I simply misread Jung?

This is basically the point. Trusting Ni more than Te leads to a backing off of Te, so the justification can be hard to address, especially since I'm young and the Te function hasn't really developed too much.

Through this example, I find extroverts odd in a way. It seems odd that one can learn to justify ideas when young (ENTJ) but has a limit to their own ideas (because Ni hasn't developed) which creates a need for extroversion and not only is the product of it (but I wonder what was there first, the need or the production). I guess the same goes for ENTP, they come up with external ideas that are barely justified by their sense of logic.

Is it just me or is primary N at a young age like trial and error without discernment?
 

527468

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I find that young Ni users don't trust it and rely heavily on Te or Fe. It takes time to realize that Ni is usually right and to rely on it and just use Te or Fe to back it up.

Can Ni seem like trial and error without discernment at times? Because I can relate to that idea. It seems weird that I would trust Te over Ni.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
Joined
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i totally HATE if i have to rely on my vision, before it is finishes, and i currently estimate that it will be finished like 15 days after my physical body dies. reasons to not rely on my unfinished vision are both ethical and strategical (logical).

i will only insist to act on the ground of my vision, if some circumstance forces me to take sides for either my vision, or some superficial unnatural crap, that some airhead came up with. what would jean d'arc have become, without those english invaders.

this is why Ni people can never be called "judgers", especially if judgers are associated with self confidence and search for power and quick implementation of ideas.

oh, well ...
 

527468

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I'm not sure what you mean by vision, since you have an X after your F.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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vision=perception. Ni, unless i am Si with a mad shadow Ni but then it would still be Ni

i think carl jung talked about the live long formulation of a single image for the whole world. dont remember the context of it.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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but if by judging one means "to kill thy own ideas", then it makes sense to call us judgers :(
 

527468

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I don't think you can complete a vision without external sources mostly found in conversation. So I can see how young INFXs would rely mostly on their extroverted function. It would not make them very introverted then, which I feel I do rely on my Ni, so I must have been born with more vision to me or something.

I don't know why they call me J :/
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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yeah, perception is all about examining the outer world, which includes oneself. inner pictures of ni are representations of the world. there is only one world. only one brain. only one skull. communication takes place inside of it. gets something going. creates resonance. is inspiring.

introversion is about "creative" uniting of as much as possible and examining the intrinsic character of one such united entity, extroversion is about "objective" fragmenting/dividing of the whole into virtual entities and examining the interactive (external) character of those fragments. both get a big picture of everything, just the boundaries are defined differently, and the prediction of the character of the whole is sort of "sidewards". Ni knows what one virtual entity is up to. Ne knows what will happen if virtual entity x meets virtual entity y. both predict different aspects of the future. by virtual i mean, that all boundaries are subjective. their definition is the basic act of perception.

introverted perception grows with experience, but fears to be totally overwhelmed. extroverted perceptions copes with volume of experience by becoming more superficial, remaining very effective, but getting nihilistic.
 

527468

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yeah, perception is all about examining the outer world, which includes oneself. inner pictures of ni are representations of the world. there is only one world. only one brain. only one skull. communication takes place inside of it. gets something going. creates resonance. is inspiring.

introversion is about "creative" uniting of as much as possible and examining the intrinsic character of one such united entity, extroversion is about "objective" fragmenting/dividing of the whole into virtual entities and examining the interactive (external) character of those fragments. both get a big picture of everything, just the boundaries are defined differently, and the prediction of the character of the whole is sort of "sidewards"

introverted perception grows with experience, but fears to be totally overwhelmed. extroverted perceptions copes with volume of experience by becoming more superficial, remaining very effective, but getting nihilistic.

Yes, it seems that all E functions are more effective at first, and all the I functions grow with experience. Fine example is Se and Si. If you had enough memory of something, there would be no need to perceive it from its source. Although I think Si is aimed towards what some one is used to and not so much the probability that it happens. So Si wouldn't necessarily try to perceive the result, but rather know if something is normal or not.

This leads to the fact that Ni seems to generalize its past sources into a single concept, and that's why I think it is less biased compared to influence of possibly one or two external factors (extroverted function).

Disagreement
Ne=A can easily lead to Z
Ni=no it can't because A is very similar to B, and B has always been B (something going on in the unconscious)

Ti or Fi starts out with too high of standards in which most ideas aren't going to be accepted. The INXP could just improve on the idea, but in most cases they keep surfing ideas because none of them seem to be fitting their J function. The reason why Pi cannot be perfected is because it is unchanged. It is like fitting a color blob to custom lines. How long is it going to take you to find the perfect outline? When you find it, the color is structured by the lines, but the lines don't exactly form a powerful shape like the square or triangle. But it can.

Ni contains a very specific idea applying to Je. The idea of Ni must fit the correct standard of either Te or Fe, so the idea or vision must morph into that reality, into something that can be accepted, by us (the user) and everyone else. That is why Ni users question their vision, because it is correct, but it never fits with their specific idea applying to Je.
 

nanook

a scream in a vortex
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Ne would argue that A can turn out to become Z if Q comes into the game and kicks A into the butt. Ni has forgotten about Q, but if reminded, it may know that A would quickly get into its old form again, because it has an elastic intrinsic character. so if kicked by Q, A would mutate like that: A..C...D...X..Y.X..D..C..A :p

so TiNe people often have those ridiculously relativistic ideas about how moral is just a relative system applied to humans, but NiFe could never forget that the intrinsic nature of humans features basic moral sensitivity that only finds relative expressions.


on the other hand Ne makes more darwinistic assumptions.:
it watches how 5 turns into 8 and thinks that this mutation is an external property of 5. "thats what 5 does." Ni takes time to observe that 5 is reacting to something. only this reaction is the internal property of 5. but without a little help from the outside, 5 would stay 5 forever. and if you mistreat your 5 it will end up as a 7. thats what 5 does. both of it. knowing all the potential of the individual, and its reaction to the current situation. rather than knowing all the statistical potential of a lot of possible situations that combine a lot of individuals.

anyway, i am not ready to push out my early understanding of sensing. what i said in #13 was only meant to be true for N.
 
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