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Thread: Function Stacks

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    imho the "conventional" take is the only useful part. ill explain...


    the problem i have with functions is when people take a test and (being an INFJ irl for example) go: "wow look my functions are Ti, Fe, Ni, Si"... well that isn't at all how functions work. if you take that approach, in my feeble illogical mind, then you can only look at function as individual entities and not as a team of functions working together (which is a much more elegant and explains quite a bit more). also taking this approach kinda kills the "conventional" approach which is fundamental in functions (imho). idk if any of this makes sense... its been a long day.
    I guess i am at the point of understanding the temperments but now working backwards to further understand the individual functions. I have been having fun breaking them out and watching how each would approach a given situation (I even made a blog post or two, they look crazy but were kind of fun to write).

    I can distinctly feel Ne, Fi and Te sort of stepping up to take a turn at bat and I can segregate out one from the other. Normally thogh it is more like an Ne-Fi or Ne-Te when I interact in the real world or a mix of all three.


    Oddly I also notice that hormonal changes will actually play down the Fi or play up the Te-PMS

  2. #22
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    I guess i am at the point of understanding the temperments but now working backwards to further understand the individual functions. I have been having fun breaking them out and watching how each would approach a given situation (I even made a blog post or two, they look crazy but were kind of fun to write).

    I can distinctly feel Ne, Fi and Te sort of stepping up to take a turn at bat and I can segregate out one from the other. Normally thogh it is more like an Ne-Fi or Ne-Te when I interact in the real world or a mix of all three.


    Oddly I also notice that hormonal changes will actually play down the Fi or play up the Te-PMS
    oh god an ENFP with PMS... why have i never thought of that. *runs*

    with an ENFP you would (this is a quick dirty explanation of your first 3 functions) take in information via Ne and decide what to do with it with Fi and then use that decision to apply it to an outside system type of thing. in my personal opinion i believe that no matter what an ENFP (or any other type, respectively) will always use Ne and Fi as their first two functions and always use them stronger than anything else. however, once an ENFP reaches adult age i think that with a developing Te and Si you see a bit more "control" on their part. you know what im talking about
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    oh god an ENFP with PMS... why have i never thought of that. *runs*

    with an ENFP you would (this is a quick dirty explanation of your first 3 functions) take in information via Ne and decide what to do with it with Fi and then use that decision to apply it to an outside system type of thing. in my personal opinion i believe that no matter what an ENFP (or any other type, respectively) will always use Ne and Fi as their first two functions and always use them stronger than anything else. however, once an ENFP reaches adult age i think that with a developing Te and Si you see a bit more "control" on their part. you know what im talking about
    You know I don't know. I am pretty defensive about the Fi so I hide it pretty well. I have been using Te defensively since I was a teen (which isn't healthy I'll admit) but my Te is tough as nails. I can go head to head with an ENTJ and not break a sweat. Keeping Fi productive is harder honestly since it is so gooey and stupid and it can overwhelm me and throw me through the ringer. Si is almost nonfunctional for me.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    the problem i have with functions is when people take a test and (being an INFJ irl for example) go: "wow look my functions are Ti, Fe, Ni, Si"... well that isn't at all how functions work. if you take that approach, in my feeble illogical mind, then you can only look at function as individual entities and not as a team of functions working together (which is a much more elegant and explains quite a bit more). also taking this approach kinda kills the "conventional" approach which is fundamental in functions (imho). idk if any of this makes sense... its been a long day.
    Well if you take the function ordering as is... then for sure I wouldn't fit under the INFJ category. I'm not really an INTJ either.

    I'm not referring to function tests... but my Ni is strongest. My second natural tendency is to "rationalize" make sense of those thoughts using Ti. Fe appears to be an unconscious decision maker. For example I sometimes get annoyed at people on the bus for their actions (not that I voice this). However if you ask me consciously to set down a decision, I have no problems with doing what's most efficient, people be damned. How can I call myself an INFJ if most of my decisions are pragmatically based? I also have very poor Fi...

    The way I see function interactions does not require the set function ordering... (i.e. INFJ must be Ni Fe Ti Se Ne Fi Te Si.) Only that you know the relative preference for your main functions. Which is your main ones, and which is used for support. Usually a single function leads and everything else is roped to feed its needs.

    Elfie played with it some over on pudding... if you're excuse some of the fluff posts and search you'll find the "serious" function interaction posts.
    MBTI dissection - The Little Puddin' that Could
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  5. #25
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    the problem i have with functions is when people take a test and (being an INFJ irl for example) go: "wow look my functions are Ti, Fe, Ni, Si"... well that isn't at all how functions work. if you take that approach, in my feeble illogical mind, then you can only look at function as individual entities and not as a team of functions working together (which is a much more elegant and explains quite a bit more). also taking this approach kinda kills the "conventional" approach which is fundamental in functions (imho). idk if any of this makes sense... its been a long day.
    Yes, it does make sense and yes, I agree 100%! Those cognitive process tests have a lot to answer for (but not as much as Socionics - don't get me started there!).

    A person's true MBTI type reveals precisely how their team of eight functions is designed to work together (as you so elegantly put it). In fact that's all it really does: it says nothing about the level of development of any of those functions, nor does it take into account individual life circumstances which may force people to use their less-preferred functions instead of their natural strengths.

    There are eight team roles which can be filled by any of the eight type functions. Each function is expressed differently according to its team role. So instead of one description for, say, Si, we really need eight descriptions: One for Si as dominant, one for auxiliary Si, one for tertiary Si, etc.

    There are only sixteen possible ways in which the type functions can combine to form these teams, which correspond to the 16 MBTI types.

    This is why there are so many contradictory descriptions and so much confusion around the nature of the type functions, sufficient to cause many people to conclude that they do not even exist. Every MBTI type will have a different experience of each function according to the role it plays in their personal team.

    8 functions x 8 roles means there are 64 possible type/role combinations!

    What we really need is a good, comprehensive and accurate description of these 64 combinations. The only one I know of is a very brief summary by a person who attended one of Dr John Beebe's seminars. It can be found here:

    Symbol Thinking: Mapping Jungian Archetypes on Cognitive Processes

    It is too brief to be of much use, but it should be enough to serve as a starting point for compiling a more comprehensive and useful list. We have many knowledgable type experts on this forum who subscribe to this extension of Jung's original theory of types. Perhaps we should put our heads together and start doing this? It's a massive task and likely to be the subject of much controversy and debate, but IMHO it is long overdue.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    What we really need is a good, comprehensive and accurate description of these 64 combinations. The only one I know of is a very brief summary by a person who attended one of Dr John Beebe's seminars. It can be found here:

    Symbol Thinking: Mapping Jungian Archetypes on Cognitive Processes

    It is too brief to be of much use, but it should be enough to serve as a starting point for compiling a more comprehensive and useful list. We have many knowledgable type experts on this forum who subscribe to this extension of Jung's original theory of types. Perhaps we should put our heads together and start doing this? It's a massive task and likely to be the subject of much controversy and debate, but IMHO it is long overdue.
    This site has some similar work.
    Type and Archetype

    The type templates on this page are the most useful.

  7. #27
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    This site has some similar work.
    Type and Archetype

    The type templates on this page are the most useful.
    OMG, I found that site before, printed off the template for INFJ and then promptly forgot all about it!

    That in itself is confirmation of Beebe's description of demonic Si:

    forgetting peoples names, unorderliness, hallucinations, Others ask:"Have you been in this body for long?"

    I actually made this realisation long before I found Beebe's list:

    Heroic Si excels at remembering things.
    Demonic Si excels at forgetting things!

    I was going to add something else but it's already slipped my mind. Not to mention, I've "forgotten" that I'm at work and have to go and actually DO some right now!
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  8. #28
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    Yes, it does make sense and yes, I agree 100%! Those cognitive process tests have a lot to answer for (but not as much as Socionics - don't get me started there!).

    A person's true MBTI type reveals precisely how their team of eight functions is designed to work together (as you so elegantly put it). In fact that's all it really does: it says nothing about the level of development of any of those functions, nor does it take into account individual life circumstances which may force people to use their less-preferred functions instead of their natural strengths.

    There are eight team roles which can be filled by any of the eight type functions. Each function is expressed differently according to its team role. So instead of one description for, say, Si, we really need eight descriptions: One for Si as dominant, one for auxiliary Si, one for tertiary Si, etc.

    There are only sixteen possible ways in which the type functions can combine to form these teams, which correspond to the 16 MBTI types.

    This is why there are so many contradictory descriptions and so much confusion around the nature of the type functions, sufficient to cause many people to conclude that they do not even exist. Every MBTI type will have a different experience of each function according to the role it plays in their personal team.

    8 functions x 8 roles means there are 64 possible type/role combinations!

    What we really need is a good, comprehensive and accurate description of these 64 combinations. The only one I know of is a very brief summary by a person who attended one of Dr John Beebe's seminars. It can be found here:

    Symbol Thinking: Mapping Jungian Archetypes on Cognitive Processes

    It is too brief to be of much use, but it should be enough to serve as a starting point for compiling a more comprehensive and useful list. We have many knowledgable type experts on this forum who subscribe to this extension of Jung's original theory of types. Perhaps we should put our heads together and start doing this? It's a massive task and likely to be the subject of much controversy and debate, but IMHO it is long overdue.
    is my response to this:
    Well if you take the function ordering as is... then for sure I wouldn't fit under the INFJ category. I'm not really an INTJ either.

    I'm not referring to function tests... but my Ni is strongest. My second natural tendency is to "rationalize" make sense of those thoughts using Ti. Fe appears to be an unconscious decision maker. For example I sometimes get annoyed at people on the bus for their actions (not that I voice this). However if you ask me consciously to set down a decision, I have no problems with doing what's most efficient, people be damned. How can I call myself an INFJ if most of my decisions are pragmatically based? I also have very poor Fi...

    The way I see function interactions does not require the set function ordering... (i.e. INFJ must be Ni Fe Ti Se Ne Fi Te Si.) Only that you know the relative preference for your main functions. Which is your main ones, and which is used for support. Usually a single function leads and everything else is roped to feed its needs.

    Elfie played with it some over on pudding... if you're excuse some of the fluff posts and search you'll find the "serious" function interaction posts.
    MBTI dissection - The Little Puddin' that Could
    i could not have put it any better... great response
    what i was trying to get at was functions aren't meant to be used individually and so off hand like that. they loose power without the order. also they are a model for the temperaments so if you put them in a different order you loose the temperaments.

    as a side note Te can rationalize just as well as Ti
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

    Enneagram: 9w1

  9. #29
    beyondaurora
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    OMG, I found that site before, printed off the template for INFJ and then promptly forgot all about it!

    That in itself is confirmation of Beebe's description of demonic Si:

    forgetting peoples names, unorderliness, hallucinations, Others ask:"Have you been in this body for long?"

    I actually made this realisation long before I found Beebe's list:

    Heroic Si excels at remembering things.
    Demonic Si excels at forgetting things!

    I was going to add something else but it's already slipped my mind. Not to mention, I've "forgotten" that I'm at work and have to go and actually DO some right now!
    Apollanaut - where can I find that Beebe info?

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyondaurora View Post
    Apollanaut - where can I find that Beebe info?
    Follow this link:

    Symbol Thinking: Mapping Jungian Archetypes on Cognitive Processes

    If it doesn't work for you, let me know and I'll post the full list here instead.

    For what it's worth , I identify and agree with the following descriptions on the list of the function order applicable to INFJs:

    Heroic Ni
    Parental Fe
    Puer Ti
    Anima Se
    Oppositional Ne
    Trickster Te
    Demonic Si

    I had sort of worked most of them out for myself anyway, this list just confirmed my theories, and further validated my view that Beebe knows what he's talking about.

    As for Fi,

    I sort of can tell when my Witchy Fi flares up: I start to feel unworthy of my high ideals, become very moody (depressed or angry) and feel very critical of myself and others, but I don't usually express any of this out loud. But Fi is still very murky terrain for me. Again, this makes sense, because according to Beebe, the sixth function is commonly the last one to develop.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

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