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  1. #11
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    This in principle cannot work. You're defining functions by what they do and not in terms of unconscious dispositions. If you take an SJ for instance with a well developed Ne, by your definitions it would have to follow that he is an Ne type as he easily sees ways to make a new metaphor or an idea. This theory is incoherent also because such a person would use Si and Ni well too. As by your definition he could easily 'pick and try to make many ideas'. So, what type is he, if he can be described with more than one of the definitions you've listed?

    In one sentence, if a type is defined by behaviors, the type will be a logically incoherent notion as it will contain many behaviors that contradict one another. For instance, one may have both Ne and Si behaviors.

    Ne is not what you define it as 'or seeing new opportunities' and what not, but merely an unconscious disposition to have imagination stimulated by the external environment. Seeing many new opportunities may be a result of such a disposition, but in principle cannot be the very definition of Ne as described above. The same holds for the remainder of the definitions of functions.
    I'm not talking about dispositions, I'm talking about the functions themselves. I didn't say anything about type.

  2. #12
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'm not talking about dispositions, I'm talking about the functions themselves. I didn't say anything about type.
    The definition of the function is a disposition, a solidified unconscious disposition.

    Type is one solidified unconscious disposition. For instance, Ni.

    Temperament is an aggreggate of types, e.g Ni-Fe-Ti-Se.

    Bottom line is you can't talk about types without talking about dispositions as disposition inheres within a type because the definition of the type is a solidified unconscious disposition.
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  3. #13
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    The definition of the function is a disposition, a solidified unconscious disposition.

    Type is one solidified unconscious disposition. For instance, Ni.

    Temperament is an aggreggate of types, e.g Ni-Fe-Ti-Se.

    Bottom line is you can't talk about types without talking about dispositions as disposition inheres within a type because the definition of the type is a solidified unconscious disposition.
    I'm not talking about types or dispositions.

    The perspective I'm taking is that these functions exist as concepts, and people have different tendencies to use each one.

  4. #14
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'm not talking about types or dispositions.

    The perspective I'm taking is that these functions exist as concepts, and people have different tendencies to use each one.
    Then don't define this as functions. Define this as an inquiry into applied typology and state that you're concerned not with functions themselves but with how functions tend to be used by people.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    LOL

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Then don't define this as functions. Define this as an inquiry into applied typology and state that you're concerned not with functions themselves but with how functions tend to be used by people.
    Ti at its best.

  7. #17
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Then don't define this as functions. Define this as an inquiry into applied typology and state that you're concerned not with functions themselves but with how functions tend to be used by people.
    Well, they are functions in the sense that they're input/output relations.

    But you're right, it would be confusing starting from your perspective, as you have different definitions of the same words.

  8. #18
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Well, they are functions in the sense that they're input/output relations..
    You have described how functions could be used (E.G, Ne could be used to see many possibilities of how a situation unfolds), but this is not the only way Ne could be used. The definition of Ne is simply the tendency to have imagination most easily inspired by the external world. As a result of this imagination is often applied to the external situation, but it need not be limited to this.

    At best, your description of how the functions work is incomplete because it cites only some instances of what they do, yet neglects to take note of others.



    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    But you're right, it would be confusing starting from your perspective, as you have different definitions of the same words.
    Your definitions are muddying the waters by confusing temperament for personality. It is this kind of thinking is what inspired students of typology to attribute rigid personality characteristics to temperaments. (E.G, ENTJs are those who are bossy, ENFPs are those who are creative).
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #19
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    You have described how functions could be used (E.G, Ne could be used to see many possibilities of how a situation unfolds), but this is not the only way Ne could be used. The definition of Ne is simply the tendency to have imagination most easily inspired by the external world. As a result of this imagination is often applied to the external situation, but it need not be limited to this.

    At best, your description of how the functions work is incomplete because it cites only some instances of what they do, yet neglects to take note of others.
    I don't see this.

    Your definitions are muddying the waters by confusing temperament for personality. It is this kind of thinking is what inspired students of typology to attribute rigid personality characteristics to temperaments. (E.G, ENTJs are those who are bossy, ENFPs are those who are creative).
    Again, I've said nothing about type. The only conclusion you can draw from what I say is something like: a person that spouts ideas all the time about everything they see is using Intuition, and in a generally extroverted way. Not that they're an NP or SJ with developed Ne or anything, only that they are using Intuition, and the observed attitude is extroverted.

  10. #20
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I don't see this..
    You don't see that Extroverted Intuition could be used in ways other than simply seeing the situation in different perspectives?

    The definition of the Extroverted Intuition warrants this, as it is simply Intuition inspired by the external world. Having taken this in consideration, why should Ne be limited only to this activity. It is simply the use of Imagination which is most easily applied to the external world . (Generally, as you point out, it will be about the external situation and will be somewhat scattered as you have implied because it lacks the internal locus of control, unlike Ni which isnt scattered. So, Ne, generally is concerned with seeing the same situation from different angles which may not be closely linked to one another. Ni, on the other hand does not depend on the external situation, so it need not focus on that same external situation. In summary, Ne is imagination mostly about the external world, and it is the property of imagination to see things from many different angles, Ne is about the external world, so it sees the external situation from many angles. Ni is less concerned with the external world, so unlike Ne it need not focus on that one external situation. It can apply the property of imagination (seeing things from many perspectives) to something other than th external situation, so unlike Ne it does not need to be confined to analyzing the same external situation.) The point is, however, that generally Ne is forced to deal with the same external situation and as a result views it from many different angles. Hence, as aforementioned the result is viewing the same scenario from many different positions. This is circumstancial because in most cases Ne cannot function like an Ni (and is forced to view the same instance from many different perspectives). However, in principle Ne can function in a manner different from how it tends to function (Ne), and more like Ni. Take an idiosyncratic scenario where Ne is presented not with circumstances of some particular situation of the external world (as it usually is), but with some complex idea about astronomy, or some mystical phenomenon. (That Ni is concerned with often). The essence of Ne is imagination, so in principle it could be used to deal with ideas in a manner Ni does (just conjure new ideas without focusing foremost on the method of viewing the same situation from different angles, as viewing the situation from different angles simply would not be helpful).

    The definition of Ne is imagination inspired by the external world. Hence, in principle, it is possible for such a cognitive faculty to perform in a manner similar to that of the faculty which is imagination inspired by the internal world. For this reason, Ne is chiefly concerned with viewing the same situation from many different angles, but is not limited to this. As a result, Ne cannot be defined in a behavioristic manner that you propose because the cited behaviors do not include all relevant instances of Ne in action. It should be pointed out that the behaviors in principle cannot be a description of the function or any cognitive activity, much like screaming is not a description of pain, it is only a manifestation of pain. However, as you have duly noted, you're not concerned with functions, but with how they tend to be used, yet you have failed to provide a description of how they tend to be used as well because your set of descriptions is incomplete.




    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    The only conclusion you can draw from what I say is something like: a person that spouts ideas all the time about everything they see is using Intuition, and in a generally extroverted way. Not that they're an NP or SJ with developed Ne or anything, only that they are using Intuition, and the observed attitude is extroverted.

    Yes, and this is one way Extroverted Intuition is used, though not the only.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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