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  1. #51
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I see a couple of different parameters that define J and P that aren't necessarily related.

    J
    Certitude in ideas - Thinking in terms of conclusions
    Closure oriented - More comfort with decisions being finalized
    Organized/Structured
    Initiating/Acting onto the world (this might be extroversion EJ in particular)

    P
    Uncertainty - Thinking in terms of possibilities
    Open-ended - More comfortable with options
    Unstructured
    Responding/Reacting to the world (this might be introversion IP in particular)

    I bolded the parts I identify with and see a distinct relationship between them. I've mentioned this before, but I am rather organized because it is the way I remain open to new ideas or even new belonging that go in the closet. The structure is an open-ended system that allows for new acquisitions easily. One can metaphorically throw new stuff into a messy closet (and perhaps know where everything is), but that doesn't allow it to have its most meaningful relationship to what is already there or make it as clear what needs to go. Structure can increase fluidity.

    I have had an employer that is my exact opposite, who confuses me on this J-P issue for the same reasons I confuse myself. On the one hand she has the most intense certitude and is forceful in implementing her plans and ideas. Her presence is absolute, intense, no debate, just finality. She would be the extreme J by many estimates. However, she is also intensely random and works best in a highly controlling, yet potentially unstructured scenario. Plans can change quickly. She is comfortable acting on impulse and has stated this. It is a kind of certainty-random pairing that seems extremely J and P at the same time. It separates the exact same two poles I notice in myself, but exists at the opposite end of both.

    My point is that on the one hand I find the distinction confusing. The most prominent stereotype of J vs. P is to transplant the Type A and Type B personality assumptions onto it, but neither accounts for everything.
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  2. #52
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post

    I have had an employer that is my exact opposite, who confuses me on this J-P issue for the same reasons I confuse myself. On the one hand she has the most intense certitude and is forceful in implementing her plans and ideas. Her presence is absolute, intense, no debate, just finality. She would be the extreme J by many estimates. However, she is also intensely random and works best in a highly controlling, yet potentially unstructured scenario. Plans can change quickly. She is comfortable acting on impulse and has stated this. It is a kind of certainty-random pairing that seems extremely J and P at the same time. It separates the exact same two poles I notice in myself, but exists at the opposite end of both.
    FOR THE LAST TIME!!! ESXJ IS NOT THE SAME AS ENXJ

    ENXJs DO REALLY EXIST!!! I SWEAR!

  3. #53
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    I like to think that the subtleties of someone's appearance and mannerisms that work into an overall 'vibe' is sometimes enough to tell if someone is a distinct J or P personality. With moderate personalities, it's harder.

  4. #54
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    Yeah well, it's nothing but a poor joke.

  5. #55
    homo-loving sonovagun anii's Avatar
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    How and whether the shirt is tucked in. Whether the hair looks neat, messy, or intentionally messy.
    There's reason to be afraid, and reason to open your heart. ~ Seal

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  6. #56
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Some people have a strong J or P preference and some have a slight one. A person with a slight preference can be hard to tell whether they are P or J. On the other hand a strong J:

    -speaks with a definite tone.
    -has a very planned and intentional look to their appearance.
    -likes to plan things out in advance.
    -likes to know details spelled out with certainty.
    -gets frustrated and upset easily and can take longer to sort out their feelings.
    -doesn't appreciate when their plans change suddenly or something unexpected happens.
    -tends to be fairly assertive (although extraversion plays a role here too).
    -has a subjective outlook, but makes objective decisions.

    On the other hand a strong P
    -speaks with less certainty using words like "maybe" or "probably".
    -has a somewhat unintentional (and sometimes sloppy) look to their appearance.
    -likes to keep their options open instead of specifying all of the details in a plan.
    -will readily change details in a plan as they go (assuming they have a plan).
    -is usually laid back and doesn't get upset easily.
    -can adapt quickly to unexpected situations.
    -is often unassertive (although introversion can play a role here too).
    -has an objective outlook, but makes subjective decisions.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    My observations:
    People who are always late of their appointments are most definitely P's.
    People who promise to do things but then forget them soon after are most definitely P's.

  8. #58
    Senior Member 563 740's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcea rosea View Post
    My observations:
    People who are always late of their appointments are most definitely P's.
    .
    Simple test - arrange to meet them somewhere at 10:00 and then purposely show up at 10:15. If you're 15 minutes late, they're J. If you're 15 minutes early, they're P.
    Extremes: Need To Pursue

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  9. #59
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I see a couple of different parameters that define J and P that aren't necessarily related.

    J
    Certitude in ideas - Thinking in terms of conclusions
    Closure oriented - More comfort with decisions being finalized
    Organized/Structured
    Initiating/Acting onto the world (this might be extroversion EJ in particular)

    P
    Uncertainty - Thinking in terms of possibilities
    Open-ended - More comfortable with options
    Unstructured
    Responding/Reacting to the world (this might be introversion IP in particular)

    I bolded the parts I identify with and see a distinct relationship between them. I've mentioned this before, but I am rather organized because it is the way I remain open to new ideas or even new belonging that go in the closet. The structure is an open-ended system that allows for new acquisitions easily. One can metaphorically throw new stuff into a messy closet (and perhaps know where everything is), but that doesn't allow it to have its most meaningful relationship to what is already there or make it as clear what needs to go. Structure can increase fluidity.

    I have had an employer that is my exact opposite, who confuses me on this J-P issue for the same reasons I confuse myself. On the one hand she has the most intense certitude and is forceful in implementing her plans and ideas. Her presence is absolute, intense, no debate, just finality. She would be the extreme J by many estimates. However, she is also intensely random and works best in a highly controlling, yet potentially unstructured scenario. Plans can change quickly. She is comfortable acting on impulse and has stated this. It is a kind of certainty-random pairing that seems extremely J and P at the same time. It separates the exact same two poles I notice in myself, but exists at the opposite end of both.

    My point is that on the one hand I find the distinction confusing. The most prominent stereotype of J vs. P is to transplant the Type A and Type B personality assumptions onto it, but neither accounts for everything.
    I can be very like that when the occasion calls for it in my work. It goes really fast and it needs at each point a fast, definite action. It's all J, it's just going fast. I like it because it makes my intuition work really hard. I have to be right in the flow and feeling confidence in my ability to feel at every second how things should be. Like ... white water rafting, maybe. But you have to have a certain level of competence and experience. Another way I think of it is like swinging from vines or like squirrel monkeys leaping from tree to tree. It can go very fast but each jump is a discrete step in the process and is a decision.

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