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  1. #21
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    I may be able to discuss various wonderful theories with the INTPs here, but I have a lot more fun hanging out with my ISFP little brother.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #22
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So basically what you're saying is that either your perceiving function is most instrumental and serves the judging function. Why can't the dominant function regardless of if it's perceiving or judging be in charge. This is when we need to figure out the difference between type theory and temperament theory because this confuses two different issues.

    Here's some info I found about the differences between ISTPs and INTPs.

    Confusion of Extraversion with Sensation

    Another criticism from the above quotation is that Jung confused Sensation with Extraversion. In fact, this is not true. This misunderstanding probably emanates from either:

    - Jung's description of the thought processes he went through before arriving at his final theory. He had, at one point, associated intuition with introversion, but he moved away from that view before arriving at his final theory, or
    - a misunderstanding of Jung's use of the term "concrete" in Psychological types. ("Concretism" was a technical term that, according to Jung, reflected a primitive state of a function where it is fused with Sensation, and it results in a person's actions being determined by outer (extraverted) objects. However, the term concretism was not intended under any circumstances to apply to a normal, differentiated Sensing function.)

    It is clear, from Psychological Types, that in Jung's final theory, Sensing and Intuition had been completely separated from Extraversion and Introversion, and there was no confusion in his own mind.

    The confusion only arises when one tries to make Jung's theory fit into the framework of temperament. For example, in Please Understand Me, Keirsey starts his description of an INTP with:

    "INTPs exhibit the greatest precision in thought and language of all the types; they tend to see distinctions and inconsistencies in thought and language simultaneously. The one word which captures the unique style of INTPs is architect - the architect of ideas..."

    From a Jungian perspective, this section is clearly defining INTP in terms of the dominant introverted function: introverted Thinking. The description focuses on the inner world of ideas, thoughts, understanding, and explanations.

    The description of ISTP, however, starts with:

    "Just as impulsive as other SPs, the ISTP's life is artful action - and action is end in itself. Action for the ISTP is more gratifying if it is born of impulse than purpose. If the action is in the service of an end or aim, let the aim look out for itself; it cannot be allowed to influence execution"

    From a Jungian perspective, this section is clearly defining ISTP in terms of the extraverted auxiliary function: extraverted Sensing. The description focuses on action, and the outer (extraverted) world is so pre-dominant that it cannot be influenced by any inner world thoughts. There is no mention, whatsoever, in the ISTP description, of the introverted dominant function: introverted Thinking.

    Clearly, when Keirsey describes an ISTP he uses terms that are much more 'extraverted', and when he describes an INTP he uses terms that are much more 'introverted'.

    By comparison, Isabel Briggs-Myers description of ISTP is written in terms of the introverted Thinking dominant function:

    "ISTPs have a vested interest in practical and applied science... ISTPs can use general principles to bring order out of confused data and meaning out of unorganised facts" (p91 Gifts Differing)

    In fact, Isabel Briggs-Myers description is in some ways opposed to Keirsey's: whereas he describes them as action-driven, she states that they are "great believers in economy of effort".

    Keirsey resolves this difference by stating that Isabel Briggs-Myers "inherited Jung's confusion between Sensing and Extraversion, but in this respect her writings are completely consistent, and she portrays ISTPs as introverts. Keirsey portrays ISTPs in an extravert fashion because his system of temperament is different to Jungian typology - and the use of the same system of letters to describe both is unfortunate because of the confusion it both causes, and hides.

    Here is a fun way to think about it.

    N gives a turbo boost to T/F and S to J/P.

    Thats why INTPs have an 'accelerated' Ti and ISTPs Se.

    In observation such ideas tend to see theorizing as an end in itself and ISTPs means to the end of fulfilling a concrete goal, usually about how to do things more enjoyably efficiently. (P)

    We use our extroverted perceiving/judging functions to deal with the world. (Thats why Js are planners--use rational function (T/F) and Ps non-planners, use non-rational function, S/N).
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #23
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Here is a fun way to think about it.

    N gives a turbo boost to T/F and S to J/P.

    Thats why INTPs have an 'accelerated' Ti and ISTPs Se.

    In observation such ideas tend to see theorizing as an end in itself and ISTPs means to the end of fulfilling a concrete goal, usually about how to do things more enjoyably efficiently. (P)

    We use our extroverted perceiving/judging functions to deal with the world. (Thats why Js are planners--use rational function (T/F) and Ps non-planners, use non-rational function, S/N).
    What about INTJs vs. ISTJs? In my experience, until you get personal, it's impossible to distinguish unless someone is extremely N or S. (i.e. a competent ISTJ and INTJ would look identical at work)
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #24
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    What about INTJs vs. ISTJs? In my experience, until you get personal, it's impossible to distinguish unless someone is extremely N or S. (i.e. a competent ISTJ and INTJ would look identical at work)
    Yes, for the same reason ITPs are different to distinguish untill you learn about their philosophies on life in depth. ISTJ is not precisely analogous to the INTJ as the ISTP to the INTP, but that is the closest match.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #25
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    In my experience, the main deciding factor between ISTJs and INTJs is the reason for action; INTJs work for the sake of a personal vision, ISTJs for sake of group order and tradition.

    In regard to ISTPs, I've found them to be an extremely varied type. I've known ISTPs who were impulsive, live-for-the-moment skirt-chasers, and I've known ISTPs who were contemplative, greatly introspective individuals who enjoyed things like philosophy and mathematics. The only thing that distinguished the latter from most INTPs was that, at the end of the day, they were most concerned with philosophies and mathematics from the perspective of their possible real-world applications and sought to apply their learning to real-world problems. (Which, of course, is something I can definitely get behind.)
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  6. #26
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    In my experience, the main deciding factor between ISTJs and INTJs is the reason for action INTJs work for the sake of a personal vision,;.
    Ni is the clear-cut source of motivation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    ISTJs for sake of group order and tradition..)
    That is a Te oriented mindset. ISTJs, just like all types, are primarily motivated by the mindset of their dominant function. That is Introverted Sensing, not Extroverted Thinking. I'd argue on those grounds that they'd be motivated by the quest for their personal security, physical first and foremost. (Ensuring that they can take care of themselves when they are ill, eat and exercise properly, are consistent in their physical habits so they dont become ill and so on..) Working to establish group order and tradition is just means to an end (secondary function is used as means to fulfilling the goal envisioned by the primary), it is a way of creating an external environment where they can pursue those Si goals. Order is important because after that has been established its easier for them to know what they have to do to become secure, and tradition is important so they can know what they have to do in order to stay secure. Tradition is closely associated with predictability and is better viewed as not an entity within itself but merely the consequence of having established order.

    Order--organized external circumstances which leads to an all around environment where events occur in a predictable fashion.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #27
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    I think all this mess is easily solved by socionics, where

    ISFJ INFJ -> Fi dominance, Se Ne seconday
    INTP INFP -> Ni dominance, Te Fe secondary
    INTP ISTP -> Te secondary, Ni Si dominance
    ISFJ ISTJ -> Se secondary, Fi Ti dominance

    this way.

    We can even from transitions among types like

    INTJ has Ti Ne
    substitute Ne with Se
    you have ISTJ Ti Se
    substitute Ti with Fi
    you have ISFJ FI Se
    substitute Se with Ne
    you have INFJ Fi Ne
    substitute Fi with Ti
    and you're back at INTJ

    This way we form little rings and we could even say that for example there are say, some ISFJs that have lots of Se in comparison to Ne (the more rigid ones), whereas some others have almost equal Se and Ne, and so on

    "Being for the sake of group and tradition" isn't type related but more soul-age related usually

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