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  1. #451
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's not very helpful, since you didn't tell me what kind of thinking I should replace it with. All that tells me is that you think mine is wrong. Doesn't even tell me what's wrong with it.
    You're not being very helpful either. You keep painting with a very broad brush about your problems with SJs, "conservative types" and your "values." But you haven't been specific about what any of those things actually are. You've ignored my questions about what the specific issues at hand are. The more vague you are about the issues, the harder it is to come to a possible solution.
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  2. #452
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    SJ's destroyed the first automobile in favor of the horse and buggy.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

  3. #453
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    The type of thinking that isn't afraid of conflict... The type of thinking that recognizes that at times one must risk yourself in conflict in order to avoid the greater harm of being stomped on and rolled over.
    That's easy enough to do intellectually, which is why I'm comfortable arguing online.

    But I'm so accustomed to being stomped on and rolled over that it doesn't hurt as much anymore. Conflict has a tendency to make me afraid of a person afterwards. If I refuse to comply with someone or an overall system, I want to make sure there's a pretty good chance I'll be able to avoid it or them later on, rather than finding myself at their mercy.

    It's like my thinking can handle such an idea, but my instinctive fears won't listen to it and continue to control my actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy
    When you are young and still live at home or otherwise need to depend on your family for your physical well-being (food, shelter, etc), it can be dangerous to embrace conflict with them. Particularly if they are the type to withhold necessities if you are not toeing their line. This is especially true of narcissists who are incapable of seeing from another person's perspective, even their own child's. Often, the way to deal with a narcissist is to keep everything surface-level and nod and smile if you must to get through the day, and closely guard your inner life as your own. You don't owe anyone the revelation of your deepest thoughts and feelings. So, simply nodding and smiling and playing "cheerful and stupid" is a way of remaining in control of yourself when forced to deal with people like that.
    I think that's what I've learned to do. Incidentally, it helps uncover the underlying assumption... that most people are like that, and the ones who aren't are few and far between. I'm a little scared to find out if it's true, but I'm curious.

  4. #454
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    SJ's shattered the first light bulb in favor of the candle.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

  5. #455
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Well, how about just trying to take people as they are and forget the MBTI stuff?
    Finally, a voice of reason.
    I like looking at functions, but I loathe MBTI garbage.
    It's divisive and derisive.

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I like looking at functions, but I loathe MBTI garbage.
    Let's not forget just how the functions were developed.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

  7. #457
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Morality must be shot at.

    You make it sound like the world should be without any morals, at all.

  8. #458
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think that's what I've learned to do. Incidentally, it helps uncover the underlying assumption... that most people are like that, and the ones who aren't are few and far between. I'm a little scared to find out if it's true, but I'm curious.
    It can be necessary. And many people are like that, although most won't have the kind of sway your parents do, just by virtue of holding the moneybags or whatever. I would only challenge the notion that people like that are SJs and the ones you can be safe with are Ns. I think we sometimes fall into a habit of typing people based on our personal feelings for them. "I can't get along with that person, so s/he must be an SJ." It's a way of putting the cart before the horse, IMO.

    In my own investigations I have found that most people are decent, but I can't "click" with most of them and so I don't bother letting my whole self out around them. I rely on being cheerful and stupid with them and saving the deep stuff for the ones I feel truly comfortable with. If I'm objective about it, the ones I do click with are fairly evenly divided between N and S. My best friend just tested ESFJ, actually, and my sister (with whom I would want to be friends if we weren't related) is probably an ESFP.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #459
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    It can be necessary. And many people are like that, although most won't have the kind of sway your parents do, just by virtue of holding the moneybags or whatever. I would only challenge the notion that people like that are SJs and the ones you can be safe with are Ns. I think we sometimes fall into a habit of typing people based on our personal feelings for them. "I can't get along with that person, so s/he must be an SJ." It's a way of putting the cart before the horse, IMO.
    Yeah... you're probably right. It probably doesn't help that a lot of people I know on here mention having been hurt by SJs very badly, and are convinced that they tend to have these qualities. I almost feel like I'm dismissing their experiences if I decide SJs aren't like that. But I suppose I shouldn't take their word for it without having known any SJs. It's just very tempting to trust the opinions of people who remind me of myself in some way.
    In my own investigations I have found that most people are decent, but I can't "click" with most of them and so I don't bother letting my whole self out around them. I rely on being cheerful and stupid with them and saving the deep stuff for the ones I feel truly comfortable with. If I'm objective about it, the ones I do click with are fairly evenly divided between N and S. My best friend just tested ESFJ, actually, and my sister (with whom I would want to be friends if we weren't related) is probably an ESFP.
    Well, I effectively tend to use the same strategy, except it's more sullen and polite than cheerful and stupid.

  10. #460
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    You make it sound like the world should be without any morals, at all.
    The idea of morality as it stands is to me an abomination. The distinction between morality and virtue must be made. One can be right without having to be moral.

    Edit: I should explain this further. That anything, even cold blooded murder, could be considered moral to one and immoral to another. It is considered to us to be immoral because we have a largely agreed upon external morality. This is the problem. I don't believe that people who are different are wrong. I believe that we are all right, or all wrong. In a world of murderers, the peacemaker is vulgar. And who am I to say otherwise? Who am I to look down upon the schizophrenic's shattered reality? Morality is a lie and should be put in its place.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
    "Eternal Love also created me"

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