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  1. #421
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Regarding the question of whether or not it is you or the other person, I would say both parties are responsible any kind of uncomfortable relations between any two types.

    In other words, the problem does not lay purely with the sensor or the intuitive individual, but rather the issue lies with both people's inability or unwillingness to attempt to understand each other's point of view.
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  2. #422
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But people pushing for liberal beliefs doesn't bother me, because I approve of those. It's mostly conservative religiously-based beliefs that bother me. The theory behind those people being SJs is that they're defending older ideas and refusing to listen to newer ones.

    What do you mean? You can't mean to tell me there's something wrong with me because I don't like them.
    I will say it... but not in this context.

    I think quite a few people would gain from watching Jonathan Haidt on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives | Video on TED.com

    Identification is extremely dangerous (a few minutes into the talk, he mentions "team psychology"). The advantages you see in being against SJs (direct opposition to the openness you value in NPs) are counteracted by your lack of openness of SJs and their principles. You are reflecting exactly what you dislike about SJs, just in your own style.

  3. #423
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I will say it... but not in this context.

    I think quite a few people would gain from watching Jonathan Haidt on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives | Video on TED.com

    Identification is extremely dangerous (a few minutes into the talk, he mentions "team psychology"). The advantages you see in being against SJs (direct opposition to the openness you value in NPs) are counteracted by your lack of openness of SJs and their principles. You are reflecting exactly what you dislike about SJs, just in your own style.
    I can definitely see that. But I can't help but feel as if the other three foundations of morality tend towards unreasonable and oppressive beliefs that inhibit possibility for individuality or choice, pressing people into molds that destroy their identities. I can see the need for balance, but I'm still far more afraid of the world conservatives want to create, and just don't like their invasive, unyielding beliefs. Their principles aren't fair, they're just practical and indifferent to individual needs.

    I didn't claim to be better than SJs/conservatives/low openness types or whatever we call them now, I just said that I couldn't accept their values and principles as valid, and I know they can't accept mine, thus... conflict is inevitable. When people disagree on fundamental things, they can't coexist happily. And I'm not willing to suffer coexisting with them, because that's the only way it could happen... I'd have to suffer their oppression, and I don't want to.

  4. #424
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But people pushing for liberal beliefs doesn't bother me, because I approve of those. It's mostly conservative religiously-based beliefs that bother me. The theory behind those people being SJs is that they're defending older ideas and refusing to listen to newer ones.
    Then that is your bias, and not theirs. It's one thing if there is no reasoning, but you'd probably find that many of these people have completely legitimate and logical explanations for their beliefs. You may disagree, but that doesn't invalidate them.


    What do you mean? You can't mean to tell me there's something wrong with me because I don't like them.
    Well, I am going to say something controversial here: there might be. Some people are inherently more likable than others, and sometimes you can tell that someone else has their own issues going on when they really dislike a very likable person. Ever hear the old saying, "Judge someone by the company they keep?" The opposite is valid, too: "Judge someone by the company they turn away." It's almost never completely on one person, but it does happen. I am not saying that you are that way, but did you ever stop to think that maybe your own value judgments have been poor?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #425
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I can definitely see that. But I can't help but feel as if the other three foundations of morality tend towards unreasonable and oppressive beliefs that inhibit possibility for individuality or choice, pressing people into molds that destroy their identities. I can see the need for balance, but I'm still far more afraid of the world conservatives want to create, and just don't like their invasive, unyielding beliefs.
    And I agree. Your truth, feelings and perceptions are not incorrect. The problem is that it is also subjective, and it doesn't hold any particular objective truth. In other words, it is your preference that is distinct, like theirs. Any attempt to measure these values are going to be subjective to your stance.

    The significance of this is pretty huge, as it applies to the SJs as well. They also have their subjective views. You don't like their way, just as they do not like your way. When you compartmentalize their beliefs, even through personality, you are doing what the worst of them do too - override your preferences without consideration.

    I just want to bring attention to this because if MBTI has one purpose, it's that it helps let you bridge that gap. But do understand that it was written by Ns, for Ns. It has virtually all the stereotypical issues that Ns have, but they aren't addressed anywhere... and it highlights the gap that exists between the two extremes of preference (extremes being a given, due to the population distribution of Ns). Be careful that tool you are using isn't also forming your opinions (as you say, you get your typings from INTPs - want to guess what they don't like?)

  6. #426
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Then that is your bias, and not theirs. It's one thing if there is no reasoning, but you'd probably find that many of these people have completely legitimate and logical explanations for their beliefs. You may disagree, but that doesn't invalidate them.
    I never said it invalidated them, I said it made them an enemy. There's a difference. They have their values, I have my values. No problem there. The problem starts when one of us tries to make things conform to their values. The thing is, my values are invalidated by their principles, and their values are invalidated by my principles... so, what am I supposed to feel?

    Well, I am going to say something controversial here: there might be. Some people are inherently more likable than others, and sometimes you can tell that someone else has their own issues going on when they really dislike a very likable person. Ever hear the old saying, "Judge someone by the company they keep?" The opposite is valid, too: "Judge someone by the company they turn away." It's almost never completely on one person, but it does happen. I am not saying that you are that way, but did you ever stop to think that maybe your own value judgments have been poor?
    Well, it's not because they aren't likable that I'm turning them away. It's because their principles invalidate my values, and this makes them my enemy. It's really... as simple as that. I wish it weren't, but that's really how simple human beings are.

  7. #427
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    And I agree. Your truth, feelings and perceptions are not incorrect. The problem is that it is also subjective, and it doesn't hold any particular objective truth. In other words, it is your preference that is distinct, like theirs. Any attempt to measure these values are going to be subjective to your stance.

    The significance of this is pretty huge, as it applies to the SJs as well. They also have their subjective views. You don't like their way, just as they do not like your way. When you compartmentalize their beliefs, even through personality, you are doing what the worst of them do too - override your preferences without consideration.
    I guess the problem is that I don't see any way for either of us to be satisfied. We don't want the same things, how are we supposed to cooperate? I'd like to consider them, but every possible way I could show consideration would violate my principles. Everything they could do to show me consideration would violate their principles. I think we'd both LIKE to show the other consideration, but can't.
    I just want to bring attention to this because if MBTI has one purpose, it's that it helps let you bridge that gap. But do understand that it was written by Ns, for Ns. It has virtually all the stereotypical issues that Ns have, but they aren't addressed anywhere... and it highlights the gap that exists between the two extremes of preference (extremes being a given, due to the population distribution of Ns). Be careful that tool you are using isn't also forming your opinions (as you say, you get your typings from INTPs - want to guess what they don't like?)
    Oh, yeah... they might not like SJs. I would have thought they'd like them better because of sharing tertiary Si with them, but I guess not.

    I guess instead of seeing how to bridge the gap, I only see more illustrations of what make us different, and how much I'll have to suffer or sacrifice in order to get along with them. It kind of sucks.

    I think as an FJ, I might have an exaggerated tendency to see things in terms of friends and enemies. So I might be missing something.

  8. #428
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I never said it invalidated them, I said it made them an enemy. There's a difference. They have their values, I have my values. No problem there. The problem starts when one of us tries to make things conform to their values. The thing is, my values are invalidated by their principles, and their values are invalidated by my principles... so, what am I supposed to feel?
    You're supposed to work to find common ground. Every human being has it in some regard with someone else.


    Well, it's not because they aren't likable that I'm turning them away. It's because their principles invalidate my values, and this makes them my enemy. It's really... as simple as that. I wish it weren't, but that's really how simple human beings are.
    That's how simple YOU are. Look, I am a libertarian. What many of the people in the world believe absolutely horrifies and disgusts me. And yet, I am close friends with people who disagree strongly with me. You seem not to want to realize that this is possible.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #429
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You're supposed to work to find common ground. Every human being has it in some regard with someone else.
    We have some, sure. But if neither of us wants the other's way encroaching on their lifestyle or choices... well, it can be messy.

    That's how simple YOU are. Look, I am a libertarian. What many of the people in the world believe absolutely horrifies and disgusts me. And yet, I am close friends with people who disagree strongly with me. You seem not to want to realize that this is possible.
    I suppose it's possible, but I don't think it's desirable. Why would I want to befriend and potentially benefit or find myself vulnerable to the people associated with the cause of my enemies? I have a feeling this is more an I/E thing, though. I'm fairly selective about my friends.

  10. #430
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Yes, I have one. But only against Introverted sensors, that is, Si users. Se users I have a bias toward because they are very different from me and thus difficult to understand. But they are every bit as worthy as N's in their own respect. Si users, however, tend to disgust me, and I often have nightmares of a world filled only with SJ's, in which all people lived in caves, bleed the sick, and write with quills, because this is the way things "should be done."
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