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  1. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Oh, I know. I meant that the vast majority of people who recount these bad experiences as children are N's and they tend to type their parent/sibling/teacher as S's. Sorry I wasn't clearer.
    Thanks saying that.

  2. #412
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    What traits do people seem to associate with SJs that don't actually have to do with being SJ? When I get a mental image of an SJ, a particular image comes to mind. Mostly of people holding on to beliefs without questioning them, and trying to drill them into other people's heads, demanding that the law accommodate those beliefs, and so on. Everything from social roles, to ways of doing and acting.
    That's because you are biased. Ironically, your attitude toward SJ's is pretty much that of the evil SJ stereotype you have in your mind: inflexible, simplistic, and limited.


    You and Kai would be the two SJs on here that I like, actually. Beat is okay too, but I can't stand any of the others.
    proteanmix is a lovely person, too. And we just named a large portion of the senior SJ posters on here between us, haven't we?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    SJs are just harder for me in close dynamics because we both have certain ways we want things done and aren't particularly good at giving up our points of view.
    I can't really break it down in terms of SJ v SP.

    I find ISTJ easier to understand/relate to than ISTP.

    I find ISFP easier to understand/relate to than ESFP.

    ISFJ easier get along with than ESTP.

    An ISTJ with good development of feeling can be so delightful.

  4. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That's because you are biased. Ironically, your attitude toward SJ's is pretty much that of the evil SJ stereotype you have in your mind: inflexible, simplistic, and limited.
    Well, yes, I'm biased... but what is my bias exactly, where does it come from, and what is the truth about SJs? How does their real nature differ from my idea of their nature? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

    I admit I can be inflexible, simplistic, and limited sometimes. That's just a gut reaction, though, and not the result of real thought about the issue.

    proteanmix is a lovely person, too. And we just named a large portion of the senior SJ posters on here between us, haven't we?
    Isn't she an ENFJ? I guess so, but Kai is fairly new.

  5. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, yes, I'm biased... but what is my bias exactly, where does it come from, and what is the truth about SJs? How does their real nature differ from my idea of their nature? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

    I admit I can be inflexible, simplistic, and limited sometimes. That's just a gut reaction, though, and not the result of real thought about the issue.
    Well, first of all, some of the people you type as SJ's probably are not. Secondly, how much of the problem may be from your end? If you don't understand someone, the vast majority of the time it's not solely because the other person is totally irrational. Thirdly, bias can come from real-life experiences with poor examples of a type, but also learning about MBTI. I mean, if you look at the personality descriptions of SJ's, don't they sound like some of the nicest, most pleasant people you'd ever meet? You would know better than I why many N's seem to have this negative mindset toward them. It seems to come about after extended MBTI-related interaction with other non-SJ's. I've never read a personality type description and though to myself, "Wow, what a jerk." That decision happens through individual interaction. I can't even think of an abstract reason why I wouldn't like an NT or SP or NF based solely on type.


    Isn't she an ENFJ? I guess so, but Kai is fairly new.
    I thought she was one of the other two or three ESFJ's along with me.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I can't help but be reminded of the saying that people say that they see but they don't, because if they did you'd see some productiveness from seeing and knowing.
    I completely agree with your entire post but just wanted to say I am so stealing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    I'm curious what you believe to be at the heart of these issues. From this vantage point it seems strange that any of them develop in a vacuum outside of personality type differences.
    We must be speaking past each other. That's what I'm saying, that they are often personality type differences that say nothing about the character of the people involved. I don't object to someone saying "I don't get along with SJs" (assuming they have typed correctly), what I object to is the conclusion that this is somehow a flaw in the SJs. I am saying that it's a personality conflict, and therefore morally neutral. OR, when it's not personality, it may be that the person you had issues with was weak, immature, of bad character, stupid, whatever. And none of that would be something unique to type.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    This probably isn't the case with experiences as minor children but the thing is parents who are deeply dysfunctional or abusive probably aren't that easy to type.
    This is a really good point. It's hard enough to type someone you are close to, because your feelings about them can sway your analysis. But typing a dysfunctional person? Ten times harder.

  7. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    What traits do people seem to associate with SJs that don't actually have to do with being SJ? When I get a mental image of an SJ, a particular image comes to mind. Mostly of people holding on to beliefs without questioning them, and trying to drill them into other people's heads, demanding that the law accommodate those beliefs, and so on. Everything from social roles, to ways of doing and acting. If that's not an SJ, then what is?
    Well Athenian, I would say all of those are traits you or others associate with SJ that are not intrinsic to someone with a preference for introverted sensing and extraverted judgment.

    Some of those traits can be associated very easily with other temperaments, while some might be typical of, say, some SJs but not others.

    - "holding on to beliefs without questioning them"

    I honestly have never known an SP who went through life questioning their beliefs. Introspective questioning of belief systems is actually contrary to the core needs of SPs. They need to be able to act with quickness and respond to cues in the moment, with an optimistic outlook ("what I/we do will succeed") if they are to feel healthy. There is no time to question the beliefs underlying their actions. This is not to say they are not willing to question beliefs if presented with a novel viewpoint so long as it is pragmatic and capable of being acted on in the here and now.

    Most of my close friends have been SPs, along with both of my parents. My parents hold onto the same basic, core religious beliefs they have long had, and with a passion. Of course, they do not always act in accordance with those beliefs (although they don't beat themselves up about it), but just try to question the religion to my mother (or even SOUND like you're questioning, even speculating or tossing about ideas is anathema). They don't question the beliefs that keep them going. ESFPs can be just filled with positive mantras they never question, and STPs are often spitting out the same maxims that they have trusted all their lives. Think of an ESTP like Donald Trump, a known improvisor, but he recycles the same phrases for years. His core beliefs never seem to shake.

    On the other hand, SJs do not typically create belief systems, so they may constantly question their own values because they do not feel secure in them (weak or shadow introverted judgment). They look to external sources for their beliefs. SJs can also be rather easily guilted, especially SFJs. Thus they are the ones taking up the latest cause and feeling guilty if they don't do right by their children. Think of the ESFJ soccer mom who attaches to the latest liberal cause often promoted by an NJ (no peanuts on planes! switch to soy milk! no, soy milk causes premature puberty, switch back! breastfeed, no wait, go back to formula!). That is not someone who refuses to shake beliefs, they will quickly switch beliefs if a trusted source says it (be it a priest or Oprah or Suze Orman or whoever). My brother, ESFJ, is very open to new beliefs that can help him be a better, more responsible person.

    - trying to drill them into other people's heads

    Hmm, trying to drill things into other people's heads? I have to wonder what is meant by that. SJs often pass judgment on "people these days" or beliefs they don't understand, but they are not typically the ones who take the position of mandating beliefs. They are the supervisors, the overseers, the protectors, the conservators. But the powerful people who would like to force others to behave and believe as they see fit? SPs and NJs, overwhelmingly.

    I think that if one is going to use type theory, then one should look to the theory for "SJ traits".

    - demanding that the law accommodate those beliefs

    Have you ever met a liberal NF with a cause? Because "demanding that the law accomodate beliefs" is something I personally am quite prone to and I admit it, as are many introverted feelers who think their values are the best values. This is not a putdown, but SJs are the followers. If someone is doing that, there is a strong possibility that it is not an SJ but one of the more proactive types.

    Finally

    You and Kai would be the two SJs on here that I like, actually. Beat is okay, but I can't stand any of the others.
    Maybe it's you?

  8. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Well, first of all, some of the people you type as SJ's probably are not.
    Actually, I've never typed anyone as SJ. I've relied on other people's (mostly INTPs) typings, because they seem to be the best at it.

    Secondly, how much of the problem may be from your end? If you don't understand someone, the vast majority of the time it's not solely because the other person is totally irrational.
    It's not about being rational, it's about being fair or compassionate. The SJs I have a problem with tend to be... mostly religious people, or the ones who insist on social roles for people that don't have anything to do with that person's feelings or thoughts.

    It may be practical on some level, or contribute to social integration, but it seems inhumane to me. I just can't accept that it's okay to do that to people.

    Thirdly, bias can come from real-life experiences with poor examples of a type, but also learning about MBTI. I mean, if you look at the personality descriptions of SJ's, don't they sound like some of the nicest, most pleasant people you'd ever meet? You would know better than I why many N's seem to have this negative mindset toward them. It seems to come about after extended MBTI-related interaction with other non-SJ's. I've never read a personality type description and though to myself, "Wow, what a jerk." That decision happens through individual interaction. I can't even think of an abstract reason why I wouldn't like an NT or SP or NF based solely on type.
    Well, when I look at that personality description... they seem okay, but with the flaw that they are unlikely to question their internalized standards.

    The thing is, there seems to be a strong impression among the typology experts I've spoken with on here that the SJ combination somehow creates these traits in people more consistently, inevitably, and irreversibly than others. I'm in no position to refute it (though I suspect there might be bias), because I don't know any SJs whose type I'm certain of. Everytime I come up with a theoretical argument against it, they reveal another experience with them that discredits my idea. So I don't know what to think.

    I thought she was one of the other two or three ESFJ's along with me.
    She lists as ExFJ. I don't think she wants us to know.

  9. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by ladyinspring View Post
    Have you ever met a liberal NF with a cause? Because "demanding that the law accomodate beliefs" is something I personally am quite prone to and I admit it, as are many introverted feelers who think their values are the best values. This is not a putdown, but SJs are the followers. If someone is doing that, there is a strong possibility that it is not an SJ but one of the more proactive types.
    But people pushing for liberal beliefs doesn't bother me, because I approve of those. It's mostly conservative religiously-based beliefs that bother me. The theory behind those people being SJs is that they're defending older ideas and refusing to listen to newer ones.

    Maybe it's you?
    What do you mean? You can't mean to tell me there's something wrong with me because I don't like them.

  10. #420
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Actually, I've never typed anyone as SJ. I've relied on other people's (mostly INTPs) typings, because they seem to be the best at it.
    Do you have an account at INTPcentral?

    EDIT: Oh, and how do you know those people you are getting types from are INTPs?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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