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  1. #381
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post

    When I think SJ I think of parents who say, "Do it...because I SAID SO."
    What about religious dogma. The fanatics.
    The type of jackass who would yell, "Burn in hell" and shake the Bible?

  2. #382
    Senior Member Kephalos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But... they're so... so... ugh. The things they do hurt people. I wish you could see it as clearly as I do. I'm not saying they're bad people intentionally, I'm just saying their way of seeing reality might not allow them to be fair or compassionate in any way that matters to us. That may even be why they don't come here... because they feel the same way about us. We live in one world, they live in another. We don't speak the same language, and our actions result in each of us stepping on the other's toes. We're inherently enemies of SJs, willingly or not.
    I woud like to reply to this, that some of my closest relatives are SJs, and that my experience with them is completely the contrary.

    To be sure, sometimes they seem unreasonable to me, but this is the exception rather than the rule; although their conversation may seem to me shallow, they are always the ones who tell me to add something substantial to the conversation, and when I do try, they are always considerate, even if seemingly inattentive. For one, I cannot conceive how any other set of people who would not only tolerate but see past my graver flaws; perhaps, let's say for the sake of argument, they do it out of loyalty to me as their relative, but even in this case, one cannot but praise this feeling. Also, they people who are always ready to help, even with matters that I admit I should attend to myself; in very difficult circumstances which would have broken me, my SJs have stepped up. Finally, I would like to say that when I refused to be Confirmed, none of my SJs objected or thought any less of me, the only one making a big deal out of it being my INTP father. So, sorry, but I think ugh is a complete misrepresentation of SJs.

  3. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    What about religious dogma. The fanatics.
    The type of jackass who would yell, "Burn in hell" and shake the Bible?
    Yes, that too. I know they all aren't like that, though. Some care more about Abercrombie than Jesus. But whatever their superficial standard is, you better get with it, soldier.

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I have an ESFJ parent, and my N vs. S is about 50-50, and I had a pretty enjoyable childhood. Both of my parents are great (although they have their annoying quirks). Oddly enough, my mother has more of the traits that many on here associate with SJs, although I don't think I would type her as one.
    Maybe it's just ESFJ moms. The manipulation, the lies, and the histrionics were enough to turn this little INTJ into a raging E beast by the time adulthood rolled around. The saddest part is I know she really believed that I was out to get her from the beginning. She still tells stories of my peeling the "new" wallpaper off the walls just to upset her...when I was three! It's a true T-F divide. My curiosity, dislike of smothering displays of affection, and inability to say things "nicely" were all taken as a giant personal affront. She's finally figured out that it had nothing to do with her, but it took cancer and near death for her to realize that neither I nor the rest of world were personally out to get her. She's actually kind of a hoot these days, who said dementia was all bad?

  5. #385
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Maybe it's just ESFJ moms. The manipulation, the lies, and the histrionics were make enough to turn this little INTJ into a raging E beast by the time adulthood rolled around. The saddest part is I know she really believed that I was out to get her from the beginning. She still tells stories of my peeling the "new" wallpaper off the walls just to upset her...when I was three! It's a true T-F divide. My curiosity, dislike of smothering displays of affection, and inability to say things "nicely" were all taken as a giant personal affront. She's finally figured out that it had nothing to do with her, but it took cancer and near death for her to realize that neither I nor the rest of world were personally out to get her. She's actually kind of a hoot these days, who said dementia was all bad?

    I don't know. I'd imagine that I have a lot of SJ relatives, and the worst things about them would be nosy/gossipy behavior and generally provincial attitudes about the world. I never really came across super-irrational "You do it this way because this is the way you do it!" kind of behavior. I found that more in my Catholic schooling.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Sometimes I don't think they want to "get" you, because in their minds they should "fix" you. I think my grandfather's last wife was an SJ, too, and she wanted to "fix" my grandfather's entire family, and thought that people reading and talking about ideas was "weird", and god help me they deserved each other. I know that's terrible to say, but my mom says the same thing. At least as an SP even when she doesn't understand me, or we get on each others nerves, I know she loves me and all of my other sisters unconditionally and would do anything for us no matter how "weird" we are.

    My exes mother is an SJ too. She thought I was a terrible person because I didn't make my bed every day or clean the bathroom to her standards.
    That's my sis, my dear sweet ex, many dear friends, and my NOW mildly demented mother (the J is melting with the rest of her brain I guess lol!).

    EDIT: Merc, I don't doubt there are a lot of great ESFJs, it's just kind of a tough fit for a strong NT.

  7. #387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kephalos View Post
    I woud like to reply to this, that some of my closest relatives are SJs, and that my experience with them is completely the contrary.

    To be sure, sometimes they seem unreasonable to me, but this is the exception rather than the rule; although their conversation may seem to me shallow, they are always the ones who tell me to add something substantial to the conversation, and when I do try, they are always considerate, even if seemingly inattentive. For one, I cannot conceive how any other set of people who would not only tolerate but see past my graver flaws; perhaps, let's say for the sake of argument, they do it out of loyalty to me as their relative, but even in this case, one cannot but praise this feeling. Also, they people who are always ready to help, even with matters that I admit I should attend to myself; in very difficult circumstances which would have broken me, my SJs have stepped up. Finally, I would like to say that when I refused to be Confirmed, none of my SJs objected or thought any less of me, the only one making a big deal out of it being my INTP father. So, sorry, but I think ugh is a complete misrepresentation of SJs.
    I do know what you mean though...this could be the difference between, say, an ESTJ and an ISFJ.

    I know my exes SJ mother thinks the ground her son walks on is GOLD. I'm sure I have ISFJ family members who love me just because I'm family. I think my uncle is a fine example. He's like a more mellow, lovable version of my grandfather.

    I guess family loyalty could definitely be counted as one of their perks. However, sometimes that loyalty is completely irrational in the face of what their family member might be doing to harm others. Or what their country might be doing to harm others...I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned here. The rabid patriotism. Sorry, I'm getting negative again, but I've been traumatized.

    /INFP-ness

  8. #388
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kephalos View Post
    I woud like to reply to this, that some of my closest relatives are SJs, and that my experience with them is completely the contrary.

    To be sure, sometimes they seem unreasonable to me, but this is the exception rather than the rule; although their conversation may seem to me shallow, they are always the ones who tell me to add something substantial to the conversation, and when I do try, they are always considerate, even if seemingly inattentive. For one, I cannot conceive how any other set of people who would not only tolerate but see past my graver flaws; perhaps, let's say for the sake of argument, they do it out of loyalty to me as their relative, but even in this case, one cannot but praise this feeling.
    I don't understand how one could praise it. It's... arbitrary, impersonal, AND irrational (yes, it provokes both my NT and NF sides). I'm sorry, but merely caring about me isn't good enough. I'd rather be hated than cared about for the wrong reasons. I need to be valued for who I am, not what I am.

    I guess I just don't understand that at all.
    Also, they people who are always ready to help, even with matters that I admit I should attend to myself; in very difficult circumstances which would have broken me, my SJs have stepped up. Finally, I would like to say that when I refused to be Confirmed, none of my SJs objected or thought any less of me, the only one making a big deal out of it being my INTP father. So, sorry, but I think ugh is a complete misrepresentation of SJs.
    Okay, I've admitted that they do good things already. I just don't think that makes them good people.

  9. #389
    Senior Member Kephalos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I don't understand how one could praise it. It's... arbitrary, impersonal, AND irrational (yes, it provokes both my NT and NF sides). I'm sorry, but merely caring about me isn't good enough. I'd rather be hated than cared about for the wrong reasons. I need to be valued for who I am, not what I am.
    At least grant me that it can be selfless, that is, that one be may prompted to act on something else than inclination -- which may be just as arbitrary, fickle and self-serving-- or even good to ourselves. Which, I think, is a good answer to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I just don't think that makes them good people.
    Unless there is outright malice, I don't think in ordinary situations it's justified to call someone evil. However, that does not make a person good either, but at least neutral.

  10. #390
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kephalos View Post
    At least grant me that it can be selfless, that is, that one be may prompted to act on something else than inclination -- which may be just as arbitrary, fickle and self-serving-- or even good to ourselves. Which, I think, is a good answer to this:
    There's another assumption there... the idea that being selfless is "higher" than acting on inclination or good to yourself. That's the kind of ideal SJs buy into, but it's not my cup of tea. No one should be compelled to sacrifice themselves to satisfy someone else.

    I'll grant you that it can be selfless, but call into question the idea that selfless, self-sacrificing behavior is positive.

    Unless there is outright malice, I don't think in ordinary situations it's justified to call someone evil. However, that does not make a person good either, but at least neutral.
    In ordinary situations, I'll concede that they're neutral. In certain positions of power over other people, it can veer towards unwitting evil, though.

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