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  1. #371
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I
    Well, how am I to be expected to see more potential than that in them, if all I have to go on is horror stories and the majority of the sample here reinforcing said stories?
    Can you be specific as to what the "sample here" has done to reinforce "horror stories?"
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  2. #372
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    Ok - here's my take on the matter. First of all, I love SPs. I may not always understand them (and vice versa) but I am capable of having close, loving relationships with SPs, whether it be family members or a boyfriend.

    I do have a harder time with SJs, and I will agree with Athenian to a certain degree on this just because I have had BAD IRL experiences with them judging me or trying to push my way of thinking to be more like theirs (probably the opposite of what happens on the Internet, ha) but I don't hate them either. My grandfather was an SJ and he took very good care of me in the sense of providing for my physical needs and education. He was a religious family man, and not at all a bad person. However, I found it exceedingly difficult to have a meaningful conversation with him as I got into my teens and twenties without one or both of us getting annoyed. As long as I "played the role" we got along swimmingly. I do like some SJs, because they can make great co-workers or grandfathers or friends, but I definitely wouldn't marry one.

  3. #373
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    Very fond of ISFP. I am quite partial to ISTJ.

  4. #374
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    I don't care about letters, I care about minds.
    Some people have their neurotransmitters all screwed up.
    I suppose they do. Mine might be screwed up too.

    I just don't like what SJs do to people... well, if the people doing it are really SJs. Otherwise, I just don't like whatever group of people (which we've somehow associated with SJs) is pushing for submission to these poorly conceived, unreasonable rules about right and wrong.

  5. #375
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I do have a harder time with SJs, and I will agree with Athenian to a certain degree on this just because I have had BAD IRL experiences with them judging me or trying to push my way of thinking to be more like theirs (probably the opposite of what happens on the Internet, ha) but I don't hate them either. My grandfather was an SJ and he took very good care of me in the sense of providing for my physical needs and education. He was a religious family man, and not at all a bad person. However, I found it exceedingly difficult to have a meaningful conversation with him as I got into my teens and twenties without one or both of us getting annoyed. As long as I "played the role" we got along swimmingly. I do like some SJs, because they can make great co-workers or grandfathers or friends, but I definitely wouldn't marry one.
    That's the kind of thing that I think makes them... awful, I guess. They try to force people to play non-negotiable roles that have nothing to do with how said person feels or thinks, dangling offers of physical needs being taken care (or threats of physical punishment) as carrots to ensure compliance with their immutable, unreasoning rules. They think they're doing something good and helpful, but it's really unfair, destructive, and cruel.

    A lot of people say that they're okay because they usually fit the idea of "religious" or "family" people, but I think we really need to reexamine the notion that these sorts of people are inherently good. They may have good intentions and do some good things, but does that really make them good if they do so much harm?

    Anyway, I'm glad you can sort of relate. Thanks for sharing your experience.

  6. #376
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    gives us a justification for our arrogance

  7. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That's the kind of thing that I think makes them... awful, I guess. They try to force people to play non-negotiable roles that have nothing to do with how said person feels or thinks, dangling offers of physical needs being taken care (or threats of physical punishment) as carrots to ensure compliance with their immutable, unreasoning rules. They think they're doing something good and helpful, but it's really unfair, destructive, and cruel.

    A lot of people say that they're okay because they usually fit the idea of "religious" or "family" people, but I think we really need to reexamine the notion that these sorts of people are inherently good. They may have good intentions and do some good things, but does that really make them good if they do so much harm?

    Anyway, I'm glad you can sort of relate. Thanks for sharing your experience.
    Yes, yes I can relate to everything you just said. I really do believe that my grandfather loved his family and had good intentions - but that's just because I knew him as an individual. I've had other SJs come across to me as just downright mean and nasty and judgemental, like I've offended them in some way by not having perfectly coiffed hair or something trivial like that.

    Having to play a role is painful if it's not how you're made, but I accepted it with my grandfather (as I got older, not as a teenager) because I remembered all that he had done for me as a child, and for some strange reason he sometimes voiced that he was strongly attached to me, which was nice, because he was usually so formal and showed love by buying people things. Then again, he could be very rigid and hurt peoples feelings a lot over dumb things.

    When I think SJ I think of parents who say, "Do it...because I SAID SO."

  8. #378
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    Now that my ESFJ mother is starting to lose her marbles, she isn't too bad. Growing up an I/ENTJ with her as a mother, however, was about as pleasant as sitting on a hot poker. She was probably the one factor that pushed the development of my flimsy little part-time E more than any other, and why my E is still the one thing I like the least about myself. She believed the sun rose and set on my father, another NTJ, but the things that were acceptable/desirable in him as man were clearly unacceptable in a daughter. There was never a time was she didn't seem disappointed or embarrassed. The more disappointed and embarrassed she got, the more I wanted to disappoint and embarrass her. Now that I'm older I can see she did the best she could and she really did/does love me very much. I wouldn't wish and ESFJ mother on any N child however. They're brutal and they will never "get" you, regardless of how much they love you.

  9. #379
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Now that my ESFJ mother is starting to lose her marbles, she isn't too bad. Growing up an I/ENTJ with her as a mother, however, was about as pleasant as sitting on a hot poker. She was probably the one factor that pushed the development of my flimsy little part-time E more than any other, and why my E is still the one thing I like the least about myself. She believed the sun rose and set on my father, another NTJ, but the things that were acceptable/desirable in him as man were clearly unacceptable in a daughter. There was never a time was she didn't seem disappointed or embarrassed. The more disappointed and embarrassed she got, the more I wanted to disappoint and embarrass her. Now that I'm older I can see she did the best she could and she really did/does love me very much. I wouldn't wish and ESFJ mother on any N child however. They're brutal and they will never "get" you, regardless of how much they love you.

    I have an ESFJ parent, and my N vs. S is about 50-50, and I had a pretty enjoyable childhood. Both of my parents are great (although they have their annoying quirks). Oddly enough, my mother has more of the traits that many on here associate with SJs, although I don't think I would type her as one.
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  10. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Now that my ESFJ mother is starting to lose her marbles, she isn't too bad. Growing up an I/ENTJ with her as a mother, however, was about as pleasant as sitting on a hot poker. She was probably the one factor that pushed the development of my flimsy little part-time E more than any other, and why my E is still the one thing I like the least about myself. She believed the sun rose and set on my father, another NTJ, but the things that were acceptable/desirable in him as man were clearly unacceptable in a daughter. There was never a time was she didn't seem disappointed or embarrassed. The more disappointed and embarrassed she got, the more I wanted to disappoint and embarrass her. Now that I'm older I can see she did the best she could and she really did/does love me very much. I wouldn't wish and ESFJ mother on any N child however. They're brutal and they will never "get" you, regardless of how much they love you.
    Sometimes I don't think they want to "get" you, because in their minds they should "fix" you. I think my grandfather's last wife was an SJ, too, and she wanted to "fix" my grandfather's entire family, and thought that people reading and talking about ideas was "weird", and god help me they deserved each other. I know that's terrible to say, but my mom says the same thing. At least as an SP even when she doesn't understand me, or we get on each others nerves, I know she loves me and all of my other sisters unconditionally and would do anything for us no matter how "weird" we are.

    My exes mother is an SJ too. She thought I was a terrible person because I didn't make my bed every day or clean the bathroom to her standards.

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