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Prejudice against Sensors?

Costrin

rawr
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Nov 1, 2008
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I don't. :cry:

I know that the conservative-types (what type they are, most of them might not even be SJs) won't have change. Why do you think I'm so bitter?

Well.... you're wrong.

Their "solution" is usually to tell me that I'm misguided to disagree with them. They often won't even concede that my problem is valid, and that I must just be seeing things incorrectly.

And maybe... they're right. Have you critically examined your own arguments to see if they are valid?

Assuming you have, and assuming they still won't accept them, then agree to disagree and move on.
 

juggernaut

Permabanned
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Mar 22, 2009
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I don't. :cry:

I know that the conservative-types (what type they are, most of them might not even be SJs) won't have change. Why do you think I'm so bitter?


Their "solution" is usually to tell me that I'm misguided to disagree with them. They often won't even concede that my problem is valid, and that I must just be seeing things incorrectly.

Well, how about just trying to take people as they are and forget the MBTI stuff? There will always be differences of opinion, but our liberality is no better than their conservatism. It just is what is. You want them to change as much as they want you to. Stop expecting folks to be like you and you'll be a lot happier.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
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I really don't see the purpose of hating SJs, they aren't all terrible honestly. The only way you could say that they're all terrible is by going out and meeting every XSXJ in the world and making the same judgment on them, saying that they're terrible.

After thinking about it, I've realized they might not even be SJs. They could really be just about any type, but they just tend to be associated with SJs. So I guess I should take that back.
Why are you afraid of creating conflict? Your relationships with people grow stronger when you survive conflict, especially necessary conflict. If you just go along with what people say and don't object if you don't agree with it, bad things will happen, misunderstandings will happen, etc. Why are you afraid of creating conflict? It's not the end of the world to have a disagreement with someone. You will never get your voice in if you just agree, thus making you feel unheard (like you basically feel). It's just a bad loop that you could easily fix. What's stopping you from voicing what you want to say? Why would you even think it was the best thing to do, to avoid a problem? You know that problems just get worse.

I guess I'm just not comfortable with conflict, at least not in real life. I'm scared of it because I feel like agreeing with them is the only way to be safe.
 

BlackCat

Shaman
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I guess I'm just not comfortable with conflict, at least not in real life. I'm scared of it because I feel like agreeing with them is the only way to be safe.

You will get no where in life with this type of thinking.
 

Athenian200

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You will get no where in life with this type of thinking.

That's not very helpful, since you didn't tell me what kind of thinking I should replace it with. All that tells me is that you think mine is wrong. Doesn't even tell me what's wrong with it.
 

Jaguar

Active member
Joined
May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
Si users, however, tend to disgust me, and I often have nightmares of a world filled only with SJ's, in which all people lived in caves, bleed the sick, and write with quills, because this is the way things "should be done."

I asked a doctor why a test had to be done on a certain day.
She answered: "Because that's the way it's always been done."
It was like talking to someone who had a lobotomy at birth.
A Stepford Person.

I think people forget, you could see two S's fighting, just like two N's.
It's the Se-Si, Ne-Ni, that are in battle. Not just black and white: S-N.
 

Costrin

rawr
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That's not very helpful, since you didn't tell me what kind of thinking I should replace it with.

The type of thinking that isn't afraid of conflict... The type of thinking that recognizes that at times one must risk yourself in conflict in order to avoid the greater harm of being stomped on and rolled over.
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
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Apr 18, 2007
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(I've missed a lot of this conversation, so bear with me)

When you are young and still live at home or otherwise need to depend on your family for your physical well-being (food, shelter, etc), it can be dangerous to embrace conflict with them. Particularly if they are the type to withhold necessities if you are not toeing their line. This is especially true of narcissists who are incapable of seeing from another person's perspective, even their own child's. Often, the way to deal with a narcissist is to keep everything surface-level and nod and smile if you must to get through the day, and closely guard your inner life as your own. You don't owe anyone the revelation of your deepest thoughts and feelings. So, simply nodding and smiling and playing "cheerful and stupid" is a way of remaining in control of yourself when forced to deal with people like that.
 

BlackCat

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The type of thinking that isn't afraid of conflict... The type of thinking that recognizes that at times one must risk yourself in conflict in order to avoid the greater harm of being stomped on and rolled over.

I figured this was implied. Besides, it's not my place to decide what you do, but I can direct you into doing something greater with yourself.
 

Jeffster

veteran attention whore
Joined
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That's not very helpful, since you didn't tell me what kind of thinking I should replace it with. All that tells me is that you think mine is wrong. Doesn't even tell me what's wrong with it.

You're not being very helpful either. You keep painting with a very broad brush about your problems with SJs, "conservative types" and your "values." But you haven't been specific about what any of those things actually are. You've ignored my questions about what the specific issues at hand are. The more vague you are about the issues, the harder it is to come to a possible solution.
 

Into It

New member
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SJ's destroyed the first automobile in favor of the horse and buggy.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
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The type of thinking that isn't afraid of conflict... The type of thinking that recognizes that at times one must risk yourself in conflict in order to avoid the greater harm of being stomped on and rolled over.

That's easy enough to do intellectually, which is why I'm comfortable arguing online.

But I'm so accustomed to being stomped on and rolled over that it doesn't hurt as much anymore. Conflict has a tendency to make me afraid of a person afterwards. If I refuse to comply with someone or an overall system, I want to make sure there's a pretty good chance I'll be able to avoid it or them later on, rather than finding myself at their mercy.

It's like my thinking can handle such an idea, but my instinctive fears won't listen to it and continue to control my actions.

Ivy said:
When you are young and still live at home or otherwise need to depend on your family for your physical well-being (food, shelter, etc), it can be dangerous to embrace conflict with them. Particularly if they are the type to withhold necessities if you are not toeing their line. This is especially true of narcissists who are incapable of seeing from another person's perspective, even their own child's. Often, the way to deal with a narcissist is to keep everything surface-level and nod and smile if you must to get through the day, and closely guard your inner life as your own. You don't owe anyone the revelation of your deepest thoughts and feelings. So, simply nodding and smiling and playing "cheerful and stupid" is a way of remaining in control of yourself when forced to deal with people like that.

:yes: I think that's what I've learned to do. Incidentally, it helps uncover the underlying assumption... that most people are like that, and the ones who aren't are few and far between. I'm a little scared to find out if it's true, but I'm curious.
 

Into It

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SJ's shattered the first light bulb in favor of the candle.
 

Ivy

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:yes: I think that's what I've learned to do. Incidentally, it helps uncover the underlying assumption... that most people are like that, and the ones who aren't are few and far between. I'm a little scared to find out if it's true, but I'm curious.

It can be necessary. And many people are like that, although most won't have the kind of sway your parents do, just by virtue of holding the moneybags or whatever. I would only challenge the notion that people like that are SJs and the ones you can be safe with are Ns. I think we sometimes fall into a habit of typing people based on our personal feelings for them. "I can't get along with that person, so s/he must be an SJ." It's a way of putting the cart before the horse, IMO.

In my own investigations I have found that most people are decent, but I can't "click" with most of them and so I don't bother letting my whole self out around them. I rely on being cheerful and stupid with them and saving the deep stuff for the ones I feel truly comfortable with. If I'm objective about it, the ones I do click with are fairly evenly divided between N and S. My best friend just tested ESFJ, actually, and my sister (with whom I would want to be friends if we weren't related) is probably an ESFP.
 

Athenian200

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It can be necessary. And many people are like that, although most won't have the kind of sway your parents do, just by virtue of holding the moneybags or whatever. I would only challenge the notion that people like that are SJs and the ones you can be safe with are Ns. I think we sometimes fall into a habit of typing people based on our personal feelings for them. "I can't get along with that person, so s/he must be an SJ." It's a way of putting the cart before the horse, IMO.

Yeah... you're probably right. It probably doesn't help that a lot of people I know on here mention having been hurt by SJs very badly, and are convinced that they tend to have these qualities. I almost feel like I'm dismissing their experiences if I decide SJs aren't like that. But I suppose I shouldn't take their word for it without having known any SJs. It's just very tempting to trust the opinions of people who remind me of myself in some way.
In my own investigations I have found that most people are decent, but I can't "click" with most of them and so I don't bother letting my whole self out around them. I rely on being cheerful and stupid with them and saving the deep stuff for the ones I feel truly comfortable with. If I'm objective about it, the ones I do click with are fairly evenly divided between N and S. My best friend just tested ESFJ, actually, and my sister (with whom I would want to be friends if we weren't related) is probably an ESFP.

Well, I effectively tend to use the same strategy, except it's more sullen and polite than cheerful and stupid.
 

Into It

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You make it sound like the world should be without any morals, at all.

The idea of morality as it stands is to me an abomination. The distinction between morality and virtue must be made. One can be right without having to be moral.

Edit: I should explain this further. That anything, even cold blooded murder, could be considered moral to one and immoral to another. It is considered to us to be immoral because we have a largely agreed upon external morality. This is the problem. I don't believe that people who are different are wrong. I believe that we are all right, or all wrong. In a world of murderers, the peacemaker is vulgar. And who am I to say otherwise? Who am I to look down upon the schizophrenic's shattered reality? Morality is a lie and should be put in its place.
 
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