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  1. #1
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Default The System vs. ENxJs

    I found something very interesting in this Slate article about Pres. Obama and rap music.

    Their affinity goes deeper. Among Jay-Z's masterstrokes is that he never tried to rewrite the rules of the game beyond the one that said a black man couldn't win. While he takes pains to portray his success as, at bottom, a racial coup, he's never been interested in dismantling the status quo so much as infiltrating and mastering it. This is a fair description of what Obama did, tooówith one crucial exception. For Jay-Z, the fact that he got rich as a businessman constitutes its own rebellion. Obama, though, is a former community organizer who chose public service over private-sector paychecks.
    Since ExxJs are all dominant extroverted judgment Te and Fe tends to create the status quo. I wrote about this in a thread I started a while ago about the differences between conventions and traditions, but nobody commented.:steam: I said that Fe and Te are conventional in the sense that they use commonly agreed upon standards to make decisions and deduce logic.

    So usually when an ENxJ encounters a system it doesn't particularly baffle them why the system is there or what it's purpose is. If the system is built using extroverted judgment rationality the ENxJ can plainly see what it's purpose is or what it's intended purpose is. It's the element of gaming a system that I'm interested in. I wonder if this is tertiary Se. Socionics (I prefer how Socionics defines the functions) defines Se as:

    the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required. Unlike Si, which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.
    The reason why this article struck me as interesting is that I think Jay-Z is an ENTJ and Obama an ENFJ. I think the bolded parts above give an interesting clue about extroverted judgment and Ni. Like thinking back over Obama's presidential campaign, I don't think he tried take the system apart he just wanted to get to the part of it where he felt he could be most effective and have the most weight, which suggests to me enjoying or wanting the ability to influence situations and people. I think EPs would try to rewrite the rules, IPs would opt out, and IJs would stabilize.

    I love knowing 20 different ways to get to one place. I pay attention to my surroundings just so I can have that knowledge. Even when I'm driving and get into a rather large traffic jam I'll almost immediately conjur up a map of the city in my head and start figuring out alternative routes. Take for example the social hierarchy at work. I see problems with the hierarchy and I often break my toes kicking it, but once I think about it: What is it's purpose, what are the alternatives, is it going away, can it be restructured, etc. The bottom line for me becomes is it going anywhere and the answer is usually no so I either leave or change it. The problem sometimes arises that I think it can be changed and set out to do that and often end up frustrated. Then I wonder how I can get around it. Which is why knowing the shortcuts and underground passageways around the obstacle is so important to me.

    So my questions to ENxJs is what is your Modus Operandi/strategy towards The System? When you see that big sluggish ball of bureaucracy what do you do? Do you try to fight it, buck it, game it, deny it, fix it, ignore it, opt out? Do you feel comfortable entering into the system and confident that you're emerge successful? What do you do when you don't like it? People enter the fray all the time, I'm just trying to figure out the mindset of those who want to get into the brawl and where the ENxJ fits into this.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So my questions to ENxJs is what is your Modus Operandi/strategy towards The System? When you see that big sluggish ball of bureaucracy what do you do? Do you try to fight it, buck it, game it, deny it, fix it, ignore it, opt out? Do you feel comfortable entering into the system and confident that you're emerge successful? What do you do when you don't like it? People enter the fray all the time, I'm just trying to figure out the mindset of those who want to get into the brawl and where the ENxJ fits into this.
    If at all possible, I opt out. I just simply try to bow out of any situation where bureaucracy is going to slow me down. This means that I try my best not to partake in research where I'm to provide direct support to huge government projects.. I just simply can't influence the underlying culture, exercise the freedom that allows me to be creative in my work, or keep myself from wanting to stab myself in the head when we waste countless hours in meetings and other "checkbox-checkers," especially when I'm the only one who thinks the way I do because everyone else is either complacent or desensitized. For that reason, I could never, ever work for a huge corporation or government directly.. I'm sticking with small research firms and companies.

    Where it's more worth it to engage bureaucracy is social action, community service.. whatever you want to call it. You start with a small group of people who want to make a difference and use their connections to grow your influence.

    A community leadership group I'm helping lead has begun to focus on networking with an initial aim to get local companies involved in community service. Our particular group becomes a central hub for community action, and, initially, we all tap into the other organizations we belong to.. where we can directly affect the culture. Eventually, these efforts coalesce and become aligned toward the same end goals, more and more individuals get involved, we recruit more for our particular group.. it just grows from there.

    The power is in the people. Internal to our organization, we're also involved in each others' lives. We're close friends. We help each other out personally. And we've bonded to such a degree that we've got a strong, tight-knit internal group that serves as a robust backbone for our efforts.

  3. #3
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix
    The reason why this article struck me as interesting is that I think Jay-Z is an ENTJ and Obama an ENFJ. I think the bolded parts above give an interesting clue about extroverted judgment and Ni. Like thinking back over Obama's presidential campaign, I don't think he tried take the system apart he just wanted to get to the part of it where he felt he could be most effective and have the most weight, which suggests to me enjoying or wanting the ability to influence situations and people. I think EPs would try to rewrite the rules, IPs would opt out, and IJs would stabilize.
    I still tend to think Obama is ENTP, and my second guess would be ENFP. If you look at his campaign he did rewrite the rules in a lot of places. For example Campaign Finance Reform no longer became an issue since he raised a ton of money through small donations on the internet. That's a rewriting of the accepted way. It's easy to contrast his campaign style with Hillary's, since she tried to master the system using the conventional thinking of the time.
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  4. #4
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So my questions to ENxJs is what is your Modus Operandi/strategy towards The System? When you see that big sluggish ball of bureaucracy what do you do? Do you try to fight it, buck it, game it, deny it, fix it, ignore it, opt out? Do you feel comfortable entering into the system and confident that you're emerge successful? What do you do when you don't like it? People enter the fray all the time, I'm just trying to figure out the mindset of those who want to get into the brawl and where the ENxJ fits into this.
    I've made quite a few formal complaints over some problems in businesses and bureaucracies, with good results. I know why those places have been set up in the first place, and I know what kind of job they have to do to keep in business. There's effective complaint channels for mostly everything - formal, or not so. Appeal to law, common business practice, company's stated service levels, etc.

    Sometimes I just know I can't make a good case out of my problems. The business in question is not prepared to solve the kind of problem I'm having. Perhaps they've engineered a system that cleverly makes it impossible for customers to prove certain kinds of problems. Then I know to give up, and make the best out of the situation. I just count it as a loss and move on.

    I use the common, straightforward methods with a strategical plan and good execution, with good effect. I spend more time becoming a good player in the system, but I'm confident to fight the systems when it's useful.

    And yes, I'm totally devasted, pissed off *furious* when the system outsmarts me :steam:
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  5. #5
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    So my questions to ENxJs is what is your Modus Operandi/strategy towards The System?
    Personally, while I may be a rogue agent, I'm usually very much a team player as pertains to the system. I'm built to fit into and work the confines of any given structure to the best of my ability. Fe is people-centric and I'm inclined to obey the authorities until they prove that they can't be trusted.

    But I could see a Te-dominant responding in a drastically different manner. They aren't people-centric and would most likely chafe under a system they find imperfect.

    When you see that big sluggish ball of bureaucracy what do you do? Do you try to fight it, buck it, game it, deny it, fix it, ignore it, opt out? Do you feel comfortable entering into the system and confident that you're emerge successful? What do you do when you don't like it?
    I fight like a cat.

    I have a real life example: when I first moved to where I'm living now, people set things on fire constantly. And I mean things that were never meant to burn, like paint and fiberglass. Clouds of acrid black smoke used to roll across the road. My family and I were smoked out of our house no less than 6 times in 6 years. It was ridiculous and harrowing because everyone in my household has documented serious respiratory problems.

    The system did NOTHING to help us. I have a huge file of my fight against open-burning. I called everyone from here to the VA border. I called the fire dept. I called Environmental Protection (they wanted to help but their hands were tied). I emailed my mayor. I even got in a call to the governor's office. I threatened to strap myself naked to the "welcome to" by the highway in protest if something wasn't done.

    I lived with my bags packed for YEARS because of this problem, in case we had to evacuate the house AGAIN. I still leave a lot of my things packed now out of habit.

    I fought this because not only was it endangering my family, it was a health menace to everyone in the vicinity. We had elderly people and children with severe health problems living on my street, and I thought it was beyond wrong.

    People enter the fray all the time, I'm just trying to figure out the mindset of those who want to get into the brawl and where the ENxJ fits into this.
    When it gets harmful to the units/people within the system.

  6. #6
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    ENxJ's are so fascinating to me. I wish I had as strong and stable persnality as they are, I would probably have way more energy and ambition in my life

  7. #7
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorkan View Post
    ENxJ's are so fascinating to me.
    Seriously.

    ENxJs are the system.

  8. #8
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Not too many replies but very interesting topic.

    never been interested in dismantling the status quo so much as infiltrating and mastering it
    This resonates with me, big time.

    So my questions to ENxJs is what is your Modus Operandi/strategy towards The System? When you see that big sluggish ball of bureaucracy what do you do? Do you try to fight it, buck it, game it, deny it, fix it, ignore it, opt out? Do you feel comfortable entering into the system and confident that you're emerge successful? What do you do when you don't like it? People enter the fray all the time, I'm just trying to figure out the mindset of those who want to get into the brawl and where the ENxJ fits into this.
    Most of the jobs I've ever had have been low-rung intern/summer student type situations. When I was younger, late teens and early 20's, I would often kick against the system, seeing it as inefficient. This rarely got me anywhere and usually hurt me. Lesson learned. These days, I am a few years older and the quote pertaining to Jay-Z above is a good description of how I'll behave. If I can't ditch the situation, I'll try to game it from within. This is usually easy for me - I can recognize what the end-goals of the system are, how they differ from my personal end-goals and manipulate myself a little niche within the system to make life as easy as possible for me within it. Manipulating/gaming is easier/more efficient, imo, than changing the system. Especially given that most of the jobs I've done are these low level student affairs where I generally couldn't care less about what's achieved in a concrete sense.

    Now, were I in a position of leadership and, more importantly, if i *cared* about the outcome, I would handle things very differently. For example, if it was my own business or organization I was in charge of, I can definitely predict a certain ruthlessness on my own part. I really cannot stand inefficiency or incompetence. People would be given a second chance but if things didn't improve they'd be fired/let go - things would need to be runnign smoothly and well for me to be satisfied.

    Oh and if anyone ever tried to make me waste 5+ hours of work time colour co-ordinating the file folders of all the employees (a real task I was once assigned! and there was no reason for it at all - my supervisor genuinely told me "it'll look pretty" when I asked her why) ever again, heads would roll.
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  9. #9
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    Yea, I think we all tried to butt our heads against the system.

    But, I think they are right game it from the inside. It's easier that way.
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  10. #10
    filling some space UnitOfPopulation's Avatar
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    Ahh, I got my formal complaint back. I had provided all the evidence they required, stated my reasons clearly and directly demanded the right decision to be made in my case.

    The first and the second board had dismissed the complaint, while the second board had re-evaluated their first decision (presumably on the order from the top woman, influenced by some of the evidence presented in my papers) and made a favorable decision for me.

    Can't tell you what it was about, but I'm one happy ENTJ now
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