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  1. #1
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Default Costrin's Super Amazing Function Definitions

    This thread is kind of a gestalt of various theories I've posted around about the functions.
    Please note, these are just my current theories (or maybe not, if I haven't updated in a while), none of these are set in stone. I welcome debate if you disagree.

    There are 8 functions. They are divided into 4 Perceiving functions (which gather information), and 4 Judging functions (which determine what to do with the information). Perceiving then further divided into Sensing and iNtuition, both of which come in extroverted and introverted varieties. Likewise, Judging is divided into Feeling and Thinking.

    Everyone uses all 8 functions, to varying degrees. It's the role (and not strength) that you use each function in that determines your type. Your type is determined by your primary and secondary function. Pi and Je are paired together, and Pe and Ji are paired together. For the record, I believe that IPs lead with a juding function, and IJs lead with a perceiving function.

    A function is like a muscle, it is strengthened by using it, and atrophies when unused.
    S - 5 senses data.
    N - Ideas.
    T - Objective Judging.
    F - Subjective Judging.

    Extroverted Functions - Linear.
    Introverted Functions - Webbed.

    Introverted functions store the fruits of their labor in memory.

    Everything starts with perception. Each of the 4 perceiving functions interprets the data in a different way, and passes that on to the judging function, which then decided what to do with the information.

    Pe gathers external data and gives it to Ji.
    Pi also gathers external data, but also connects the data together. Compares new data to the model it has and gives that information to Je. It can also reevaluate data already collected.

    Ji builds an internal model with building blocks acquired from Pe.
    Je builds an external model with blueprints acquired from Pi.


    Function Definitions:

    Se - Gathers 5 senses data. Least amount of interpretation of any of the functions. Passes on "pure" information to Ji.

    Si - Gathers 5 senses data. Connects that data to other data and stores that model. In this way, the present situation can remind and even transport the user into the past. Gives that model to Je to build externally.

    Ne - Gathers external ideas and explores the possibilities. Follows the threads from one idea to new ones. Passes on these possibilities to Ji.

    Ni - Gathers external ideas, and discovers the connections to other stored ideas. Leads to "mystical insights" into how one idea leads to another. Gives model to Je to build externally.

    Ti - Uses building blocks from Pe to build a model of the universe. Evaluates each piece of data, and determines where it belongs.

    Te - Uses blueprints provided by Pi to recreate internal model in the external world using objective methods.

    Fi - Uses building blocks from Pe to build a model of the universe. Evaluates each piece of data according to how it makes one feel emotionally, and constructs a value system.

    Fe - Uses blueprints provided by Pi to recreate internal model in the external world using external value system. Adopts a group and their values and uses those values as a criterion.

    Instead of retyping stuff, I'll just link this thread:
    Thread where I write about function stuff.


    The effects of this:

    IPs can be just as stubborn as EJs, due to leading with a judging function. However, IPs gather data externally, which can help offset this, but that internal model can be hard to break.

    TiNe and Ni can appear very similiar. Both develop internal connections between ideas. Difference is that Ni discovers the connections, Ti makes them. Ti's connections are more "real". Also, Je is very obviously differrent from Ne. Also, I suspect this (along with this) is why many people think INTPs have Ni.

    T isn't inherently logical, instead it takes the object and it's qualities, without assigning subjective judgment.

    Ne and Ni are effectively the same process, just applied either externally or internally, which is why Ns are differentiated more by T/F. The same does not hold true for Se and Si, and N/S is the most different, which is why you get SJ, SP, NF, and NT.

    E/I is determined by how much focus you place on your E or I functions.

    Pi can gather data externally or internally.

    Fi is logical. But instead of dealing with objective data, it deals with subjective, ie, how it makes you feel. Otherwise, it functions essentially the same as Ti. I suspect this is why many IFPs have trouble typing themselves.


    Ts and Emotions:

    (hoo boy, getting real deep in theoretical territory here)

    Emotions are reactions meant to motivate you away from negative situations, and towards positive situations.

    Their primary purpose is survival.

    Ts, being more objective, are less effected by emotions because they have learned (perhaps subconsciously) that it is more effective to not act on their emotions.

    However, everyone has emotions. Emotions must be expressed, otherwise they will express themselves.

    Emotions can only be expressed if these conditions are met.
    1. The emotion is known.
    2. The emotion is understood.
    3. There is an empathic connection.

    In actuality, the person only has to believe there is an empathic connection, even if the other person (or object, or even yourself) won't understand.


    So um... ya. More to come later, maybe.
    Last edited by Costrin; 03-07-2009 at 03:04 PM.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  2. #2
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    T - Objective Judging.
    F - Subjective Judging.
    How do you define "objective" and "subjective"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Everything starts with perception. Each of the 4 perceiving functions interprets the data in a different way, and passes that on to the judging function, which then decided what to do with the information.
    Please define "interpret".

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    TiNe and Ni can appear very similiar. Both develop internal connections between ideas. Difference is that Ni discovers the connections, Ti makes them. Ti's connections are more "real". Also, Je is very obviously differrent from Ne. Also, I suspect this (along with this) is why many people think INTPs have Ni.
    What do you mean by "discovering" and "making" connections? How are they different?


    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Emotions can only be expressed if these conditions are met.
    1. The emotion is known.
    2. The emotion is understood.
    3. There is an empathic connection.

    In actuality, the person only has to believe there is an empathic connection, even if the other person (or object, or even yourself) won't understand.
    What's an empathic connection?

  3. #3
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    How do you define "objective" and "subjective"?
    Objective - "unbiased"
    Subjective - "biased"

    F applies a personal judgment to it, T does not.

    Please define "interpret".
    The 5 senses pump data into the brain, and each of the 4 perceiving functions takes that data and does something different with it.

    What do you mean by "discovering" and "making" connections? How are they different?
    Ti and Ni have different attitudes. Ni finds the connections between ideas, which can lead to an INJs seeming confidence, as their Ni found the connection, it clearly exists, can't you see it? While Ti operates more like a kid with a bunch of legos (and each lego is an idea provided by Ne). You have a shape in mind (the universe), and there's only so many ways you can put together the legos you have into that shape. But because Ti made the connections, it's less sure about them, as you can never be sure that your way is the right one. But at the same time, Ti's connections are made out of physical stuff, and a bunch of legos can take quite a bit of time to dismantle, while Ni's connections don't physically exist, so therefore can discarded easier if shown incorrect.

    What's an empathic connection?
    Good question, ask a feeler. :P

    Really though, I think it's just that feeling you get when the person on the receiving end understands you.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  4. #4
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Good question, ask a feeler. :P

    Really though, I think it's just that feeling you get when the person on the receiving end understands you.
    Sympathy is when you understand why someone is feeling a certain way; empathy is when you actually feel their emotions as though they were your own. (If you are using a nontraditional use of empathy you may want to define it further...)
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  5. #5
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speculative View Post
    Sympathy is when you understand why someone is feeling a certain way; empathy is when you actually feel their emotions as though they were your own. (If you are using a nontraditional use of empathy you may want to define it further...)
    Well first, this is from the perspective of the one with the emotion. Whether the other person actually feels the emotion or not is irrelevant, only whether the emotionee (I'll make up words if I want to) feels that there is such a connection.

    Second, I don't think empathy as defined above actually exists, because 100% understanding is impossible. Nevertheless, humans can understand each other at least somewhat, or we wouldn't be here on this forum. So what exactly is an empathic connection? I don't know, but I do the effects are that the emotionee feels he is being understood.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  6. #6
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Ts and Emotions:

    (hoo boy, getting real deep in theoretical territory here)

    Emotions are reactions meant to motivate you away from negative situations, and towards positive situations.

    Their primary purpose is survival.

    Ts, being more objective, are less effected by emotions because they have learned (perhaps subconsciously) that it is more effective to not act on their emotions.

    .

    Emotions seem based partially on empathy. empathy can be observed even amongst animals as part of the reciprocal glue that holds social groups together. I scratch your back you scratch mine. The equation equals survival but the actual math is fueled by chemicals that make us "feel" with respect to the others in the group. This empathy will hold and animals will care for other sick animals until they become so sick they endanger the herd, at which point they are (and let themselves be) abandoned.

    So emotions are not a weakness that thinkers can surpass. They are a biological need that thinkers missed out on.

    Explain more about Ji Je Pi Pe. you lost me there.

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    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    Emotions seem based partially on empathy. empathy can be observed even amongst animals as part of the reciprocal glue that holds social groups together. I scratch your back you scratch mine. The equation equals survival but the actual math is fueled by chemicals that make us "feel" with respect to the others in the group. This empathy will hold and animals will care for other sick animals until they become so sick they endanger the herd, at which point they are (and let themselves be) abandoned.

    So emotions are not a weakness that thinkers can surpass. They are a biological need that thinkers missed out on.
    I wasn't intending to imply that at all. Instead, I'm suggesting that Thinkers have discovered another way to go through the world, ie objective judging. Clearly though, objective judging isn't the end all of everything. If you get to stuck in objectivity, then you lose all drive.

    Explain more about Ji Je Pi Pe. you lost me there.
    Ji - introverted judging - Ti and Fi
    Je - extroverted judging - Te and Fe
    Pi - introverted perceiving - Si and Ni
    Pe - extroverted perceiving - Se and Ne
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  8. #8
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    This was sort of what my understanding was like about a year ago. Internally consistent, but way overcomplicated, and not correlated well enough to Jung.

    I could explain my entire understanding of the system right now, but I'm tired and lazy.

    Seriously, though, I came to almost exactly the same conclusions at one point in my research.

  9. #9
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    This was sort of what my understanding was like about a year ago. Internally consistent, but way overcomplicated, and not correlated well enough to Jung.

    I could explain my entire understanding of the system right now, but I'm tired and lazy.

    Seriously, though, I came to almost exactly the same conclusions at one point in my research.
    I'd be interested in hearing your ideas when you have the time.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  10. #10
    beyondaurora
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Extroverted Functions - Linear.
    Introverted Functions - Webbed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Function Definitions:

    Se - Gathers 5 senses data. Least amount of interpretation of any of the functions. Passes on "pure" information to Ji.

    Si - Gathers 5 senses data. Connects that data to other data and stores that model. In this way, the present situation can remind and even transport the user into the past. Gives that model to Je to build externally.

    Ne - Gathers external ideas and explores the possibilities. Follows the threads from one idea to new ones. Passes on these possibilities to Ji.

    Ni - Gathers external ideas, and discovers the connections to other stored ideas. Leads to "mystical insights" into how one idea leads to another. Gives model to Je to build externally.

    Ti - Uses building blocks from Pe to build a model of the universe. Evaluates each piece of data, and determines where it belongs.

    Te - Uses blueprints provided by Pi to recreate internal model in the external world using objective methods.

    Fi - Uses building blocks from Pe to build a model of the universe. Evaluates each piece of data according to how it makes one feel emotionally, and constructs a value system.

    Fe - Uses blueprints provided by Pi to recreate internal model in the external world using external value system. Adopts a group and their values and uses those values as a criterion.

    Costrin - Very nicely done. The way you describe the functions is very clear and succinct. I love your one-word descriptors for the extroverted and introverted functions (linear/webbed). Thanks!

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