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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    That was me asking, in my own highly indirect way.

    I'll respond to the rest when I'm feeling less sick.
    LOL Informer language.

    But honestly, I anticipated that's what you wanted. I've been meaning to write it out. It's taking some time to hit me on what I want to say. I just didn't want you to expect it sooner than I could give.

    I hope you get better soon. I'm feeling, and fe-eeling, sick too. zz

    + GETGETGET LENORE THOMPSON'S BOOK!

    ...b/c I just realised after posting that I could've excerpted her on Extraverts vs Introverts. Dammit. Ni-Ti analysis paralysis stopped me from knowing I could've used her words instead of forcing mine.

    ++ Her book, as far as I've read, is just awesome. And no freakin' stereotyping of Sensors or what I/E Sensing means. Or of the other functions and Type in general. I'm so sick of the stereotyping, I could mash bones.

    Here here, I've got cookies for you. You just have to get yourself some milk.

    On what's usually attributed to E vs I, though she uses Extra not Extro, she says,
    "Such stereotypes may be predictable in a culture like ours, but they aren't useful to either type. [E/I]". (p. 113)
    "When Jung set out to describe Extraversion and Introversion, he understood them simply as two opposing ways of dealing with life, comparable to expending energy and conserving it. Because Extraverts regard objective reality as absolute, they will expend energy to relate themselves to it. Introverts, who emphasize what the bring to reality from within, will seek to protect their subjective point of view." (p. 114)

  2. #42
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarc View Post
    LOL Informer language.
    Indeed.

    But honestly, I anticipated that's what you wanted. I've been meaning to write it out. It's taking some time to hit me on what I want to say. I just didn't want you to expect it sooner than I could give.
    Mmk.

    I hope you get better soon. I'm feeling, and fe-eeling, sick too. zz
    Physical sensations can be such a nuisance.

    + GETGETGET LENORE THOMPSON'S BOOK!
    Yeah I've been planning on it, but haven't gotten around to it.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  3. #43
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Just thought of a more simple explanation of all the functions while talking to beyond at the meet-up last night...

    Cognition divides into conscious - judging /unconscious - perceiving

    Perceiving divides into sensing (instinct + sensory input + sensory representations) and intuition (ideas + analogies + metaphor + themes, etc.)

    Judging divides into thinking (true/makes sense/works) or feeling (right/good/appropriate)

    Then all functions divide into introversion and extroversion. Extroversion is the attitude that every piece of the environment is important and focusing too much on one thing is bad because of missed opportunities. Introversion is the attitude that things should be processed in depth, and that keeping track of each piece of the environment is bad because it takes too much processing power.

    So the difference between Fe and Fi is that Fe keeps track of as many environmental variables as possible when making conscious value judgments (unconscious value judgments are in the realm of intuition), whereas Fi picks a select few environmental variables and thinks their moral consequences through in depth. Fe is "scared" of missing an environmental factor, and Fi is "scared" of not thinking through a conclusion deeply enough. (You guys can figure out Te/Ti from this.)

    The difference between Ne and Ni is that Ne looks for all opportunities to make a new metaphor/idea, and Ni picks a few and tries to make as many ideas as possible. The difference between Se and Si is that Si filters down environmental factors in order to explore them in depth, whereas Se wants to keep all opportunities open at all times.

    Yeah, I hope that made sense.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Just thought of a more simple explanation of all the functions while talking to beyond at the meet-up last night...

    Cognition divides into conscious - judging /unconscious - perceiving

    Perceiving divides into sensing (instinct + sensory input + sensory representations) and intuition (ideas + analogies + metaphor + themes, etc.)

    Judging divides into thinking (true/makes sense/works) or feeling (right/good/appropriate)

    Then all functions divide into introversion and extroversion. Extroversion is the attitude that every piece of the environment is important and focusing too much on one thing is bad because of missed opportunities. Introversion is the attitude that things should be processed in depth, and that keeping track of each piece of the environment is bad because it takes too much processing power.

    So the difference between Fe and Fi is that Fe keeps track of as many environmental variables as possible when making conscious value judgments (unconscious value judgments are in the realm of intuition), whereas Fi picks a select few environmental variables and thinks their moral consequences through in depth. Fe is "scared" of missing an environmental factor, and Fi is "scared" of not thinking through a conclusion deeply enough. (You guys can figure out Te/Ti from this.)

    The difference between Ne and Ni is that Ne looks for all opportunities to make a new metaphor/idea, and Ni picks a few and tries to make as many ideas as possible. The difference between Se and Si is that Si filters down environmental factors in order to explore them in depth, whereas Se wants to keep all opportunities open at all times.

    Yeah, I hope that made sense.
    I thought this was good Evan, and you also included a fine example of an introverted function when using functions to define a personality... they can't be strong in this function, so I rid it completely so there are less choices. Ni would say this function sticks out the most in this person, by my impression of them, and Ne would say a few functions stick out to me, and any one of them could be primary. P functions are information gathering, so Ni is strongly gathering information about the information, if it is valid or not.

  5. #45
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarc View Post
    I hope you get better soon. I'm feeling, and fe-eeling, sick too. zz

    + GETGETGET LENORE THOMPSON'S BOOK!

    ...b/c I just realised after posting that I could've excerpted her on Extraverts vs Introverts. Dammit. Ni-Ti analysis paralysis stopped me from knowing I could've used her words instead of forcing mine.

    ++ Her book, as far as I've read, is just awesome. And no freakin' stereotyping of Sensors or what I/E Sensing means. Or of the other functions and Type in general. I'm so sick of the stereotyping, I could mash bones.
    Hey, I'm sick too! Maybe some nasty virus has evolved the ability to spread itself via the Internet!

    I want to reinforce the advice to buy Lenore's book: it is essential reading for any serious student of modern typology. Ilearned more about the subject from that one book (and it's associated wiki: The Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki) than from all the other source materials combined.

    BTW, your E/I description was excellent and worth writing as you've added some interesting ideas.

    As a recent example from my own life, on Saturday, my ENTP partner and I took a long excursion to the Bay of Islands in northern NZ; up by train, back by boat. On the train, I was in my element (I'm a train geek) and became highly energised, chatting to everyone and making new friends, while he sat quietly watching the scenery. However, he was still Extraverting - projecting his mind out into the environment and trying to relate to everything he was seeing; whilst I was Introverting in a way, comparing what we were seeing to my internal knowledge and experiences, then commenting out loud regardless of whether or not people were interested in my commentary.

    Luckily, they were, but that's not the point. Anyone observing the situation casually would have assumed that I was the Extravert and him the Introvert.

    It takes a trained eye to really spot the true I/E dynamic in action; I consider myself an expert and I still get it wrong a lot of the time.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan
    Yeah, I hope that made sense.
    You hope it makes sense? Or you know that it makes sense, you're just insecure it won't make sense to others, and you want them to validate it for you?

    cuz it made sense.

    (unconscious value judgments are in the realm of intuition)
    I think both types of perceptions work here. I think opinion is better to explain it than judging. Judging implies that it's been objectively selected. And perceptions are made aware subjectively to the individual, so they form opinions about the world that can't be disputed because it's subconsciously chosen. That being said, Si/Se are unconscious opinions based at face value. Ne/Ni are unconscious opinions based on speculation.

    It's why you don't know and can't explain why you dislike a person 'instinctively' when you first meet them.
    Se would form "they look the same" and Si would form "they look the same as"- S is linked to what's unconsciously and negatively familiar in this sense. Ne would form "they could really look like this" and Ni would form "they really look like this". - N is linked to what's unconsciously and negatively unfamiliar in this sense. So we all can unconsciously assess people negatively based on the particular manner our perceptions work.

    What do you think about my take on it?

    I'd write more but I'm tired. Just know that I agree and wish I had the same strength using Ti actively instead of reactively.

    Oh oh how I always hope I make sense too.

  7. #47
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zarc View Post
    You hope it makes sense? Or you know that it makes sense, you're just insecure it won't make sense to others, and you want them to validate it for you?

    cuz it made sense.
    More like I know it made sense but I didn't want to seem too assertive or condescending, so I was trying to look self-conscious.

    I think both types of perceptions work here. I think opinion is better to explain it than judging. Judging implies that it's been objectively selected. And perceptions are made aware subjectively to the individual, so they form opinions about the world that can't be disputed because it's subconsciously chosen. That being said, Si/Se are unconscious opinions based at face value. Ne/Ni are unconscious opinions based on speculation.

    It's why you don't know and can't explain why you dislike a person 'instinctively' when you first meet them. You've unconsciously assessed them based on your perceptions, whichever kind it is.

    Se would form "this looks the same" linked to what seems negatively familiar. Si would form "this looks the same as", Ne would form "this could look like this", and Ni would form "this looks like this".

    What do you think about my take on it?

    I'd write more but I'm tired. Just know that I agree and wish I had the same strength using Ti actively instead of reactively.

    Oh oh how I always hope I make sense too.
    It made sense.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    More like I know it made sense but I didn't want to seem too assertive or condescending, so I was trying to look self-conscious.
    He's only concerned about the retrieval.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Hey, I'm sick too! Maybe some nasty virus has evolved the ability to spread itself via the Internet!
    Nah. My sickness is diff. zz However, I find inspiration to be contagious, and I gotta say, I don't mind being sick from that!

    BTW, your E/I description was excellent and worth writing as you've added some interesting ideas.
    Thanks. I but try.

    As a recent example from my own life, on Saturday, my ENTP partner and I took a long excursion to the Bay of Islands in northern NZ; up by train, back by boat. On the train, I was in my element (I'm a train geek) and became highly energised, chatting to everyone and making new friends, while he sat quietly watching the scenery. However, he was still Extraverting - projecting his mind out into the environment and trying to relate to everything he was seeing; whilst I was Introverting in a way, comparing what we were seeing to my internal knowledge and experiences, then commenting out loud regardless of whether or not people were interested in my commentary.
    That's a good example. It reminds me of myself and my ESTP best friend, especially when she used to be 'unbalanced' functionally. When I'd get into the zone and include others, and especially when she wasn't familiar with the conversation or didn't care for it, she'd sometimes stand back to observe if she wasn't bored or if bored she'd pick at what's being said without listening. She's now become more patient in listening and... waiting by tolerating her boredom in favor of other's needs.

    I... know what you mean about whether or not people are interested in the commentary. Most people tend to be receptive. However, ah, with my best friend it's still a big time disconnection when she's not interested (it's all Se wanting a different kind of interaction). Her eyes glaze over, her mouth is slack, almost like she's narcoleptic. I used to be oblivious to it a few years ago at times because I was excitedly spouting from the hip until... I realised. Then I trained her to pay attention with prompts. And now she's more receptive~ but I've also learned to pick my battles with what I want to share if it's not of interest to her. And now she sometimes indulges me and takes an active interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    More like I know it made sense but I didn't want to seem too assertive or condescending, so I was trying to look self-conscious.

    It made sense.
    Heh. I gave myself away, then. However, I've now caught (onto) you.
    Last edited by zarc; 03-22-2009 at 12:09 PM.

  10. #50
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    RAWR MULTIQUOTE

    Quote Originally Posted by zarc View Post
    When you are dealing with someone elseís emotions are you not viewing them objectively? It's only when you let your feelings get in the way for what's better suited to them that it's your Fi at work.
    Well generally it's sorta like this: ďThis person is feeling happy/sad/angry/whatever. Possible causes may include A, B, C, or D. Possible courses of actions may be E, F, G, and H. Action E has these consequences, action F these consequences, etc.

    It's not literally that linear, but it gets the idea across. Is this Fe? Seems mostly Ti to me (though obviously not completely).

    Fe doesnít deal with the subjective feelings of the individual, Fi does. Fe doesnít belong to the self, it belongs to others. Fe deals with the collective, therefore it exists outside the self. Rules already exist that Fe didnít make up to suit the individual self. An individual can objectively choose to discard them but not on the basis of having their feelings hurt but because it didnít suit them. Fe suits itself to the rules. K. Letís try this.
    Fe doesn't deal with self, true, but with the society. But society can be subjective. I imagine Fe essentially as if society was an individual, and the Fe values of that society are essentially the Fi values of the society the individual.

    You have two parents and three siblings. That is an objective fact, right? Yet the fact is relational to you. Fe. You canít objectively deny that they arenít your family. But Fi can. Fi can say, ďI donít like them and just because weíre related by blood or circumstance doesnít mean I have to agree theyíre my family.Ē Thatís a subjective opinion based on the selfís feelings. Fe would objectively regard, despite internal disputes between the family, that they are still the family. And I donít mean to say that Fe will stick by the family either. But that it wonít deny the existence of the family. Piece Fe and Fi together within a person who is dealing with dispute within their family and both opinions can be recognised.
    Hmm. Family to me is simply the blood relation, nothing else. It doesn't imply anything other than that. An Fe perspective might say it does, though. Fi could reject that they are family altogether. So uh... stuff.

    Btw. Ti is subjective. It deals with the subjective opinions of the person. Yet still rational. Same with Fi.
    I think possibly we are operating under different definitions of objectivity and subjectivity. Possibly influenced by our biases. :P

    Common doesnít mean correct, though. Jung was specific in making it Extravert to distinguish it from Extrovert and Myers Briggs mother-daughter duo tried to maintain that. I tried finding but have yet to find info aside from the preference for Ďaí. My guess was Jung wanted it that way due to the common understanding of what Extrovert is. Loud, outgoing, lively, better social skills etc.
    If the common conception is incorrect, than that's their fault imo. I don't see why Extro/Extra couldn't cover both concepts without sacrificing much. Though I don't really have much of a preference for which is used, extro or extra. And I'm not really all that attached to collapsing it into one word either. Like I said, ďmehĒ.

    As for Extrovert, it assumes one is going outside to interact with others. And I don't think that's what Extraverting a process is about. Itís still within the individual self, however the objective is directed outside the self. I think confusion stems about extraverting towards an Ďobjectí having to mean that itís directly with the object. Itís not or itís not always the case. Itís directed towards the object, not with. So an Se Dom doesnít have to talk or touch a person, they observe physical behaviors and mannerisms of a person without ever having to come in contact and they also unconsciously Ďtake it all iní so they may notice without realising (Fi/Ti will help with realising). Don't get me wrong, Se is about touching and all that jazz but that's just one facet of it.
    Yup.

    Both I or E processing can deal directly with people. And yes, Extraverts orient themselves in the outer world easier than Introverts, but I don't think it necessarily makes them gregarious or loud or more social. Iím thinking it could be incidental to culture (that we are aware of)
    Well there's clearly some connection. As an xkcd comic said, ďCorrelation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'.Ē However, yeah, it's clearly not always the case.

    because there are more of them in North America and so itís easy to spread themselves around - I chose NA b/c we're both from there. It's different elsewhere. Look at various cultures of the past, some had clearly Introverted vibes to them. The Introverts of those cultures could readily cultivate the environment to their needs, whereas the Extraverts had to adapt to them. So if you want to find a place more suited to your Introverted way of being, I suggest you find your red heels and get to clicking elsewhere. Iíve got examples of cultures and places in mind but just canít word it yet. Shall I try?
    Not really that much of a history nerd, so I shall take your word for it.

    Some random tidbit. ENPs can be antisocial. ENFPs can be agoraphobic. Iíd guess ENTPs less so because Ti would dismiss the people within vicinity whereas Fi for an ENFP might cause them to feel vulnerably exposed. ESFPs might be shy growing up. Se is so potent for them that people have more a presence to them than other kids who a lower preference of Se. Fi not having been developed so early is probably why they're shy because they're not sure how they feel about people in their physical space and it's scary. ESTPs, same as ENTPs, wouldn't be as affected due to Ti. But they may dominate spaces more, instead, because they want to experience and test it out.
    Yup.

    So I don't think the commonly understood explanation for Extrovert or Introvert applies to MBTI. Because we can ALL be both outgoing or quiet or loud or reserved. It's just a matter of our comfort of when, why, what for, how, and for whom we choose to display ourselves as being in those moments. Our E/I processes are cultivated by them in how they're expressed, they're not due to them.
    mmhm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Just thought of a more simple explanation of all the functions while talking to beyond at the meet-up last night...
    Sounds mostly reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Hey, I'm sick too! Maybe some nasty virus has evolved the ability to spread itself via the Internet!
    A new age of biological warfare!

    Quote Originally Posted by zarc View Post
    I think both types of perceptions work here. I think opinion is better to explain it than judging. Judging implies that it's been objectively selected. And perceptions are made aware subjectively to the individual, so they form opinions about the world that can't be disputed because it's subconsciously chosen. That being said, Si/Se are unconscious opinions based at face value. Ne/Ni are unconscious opinions based on speculation.

    It's why you don't know and can't explain why you dislike a person 'instinctively' when you first meet them.
    Se would form "they look the same" and Si would form "they look the same as"- S is linked to what's unconsciously and negatively familiar in this sense. Ne would form "they could really look like this" and Ni would form "they really look like this". - N is linked to what's unconsciously and negatively unfamiliar in this sense. So we all can unconsciously assess people negatively based on the particular manner our perceptions work.
    Well, I know it's a simplified example, but would they really care about how you look, or care more about how what you look like suggests about your personality?


    So being P is nice n' stuff. I can just absorb all this information without deciding what I think about it. Just let it pile up, then slowly work my way down to the core.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

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