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  1. #11
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    in my mind all functions deal with the same objects. there is no type-relevant division of outer and inner objects. by objects i also mean topics (subjects to "thinking" and "feeling"). objects are dealt with in a certain style. that style is either called introverted or extroverted. that style has been explained by carl jung, albeit mostly by example. you need to find the abstract patterns, that make the various examples look analogue or opposed in a jing/jang way. carl jungs language should be very appealing to enfp.

    i believe that switching that style (the x-version) for a specific function is much harder, than checking out a known set of objects using different functions. so if you are dealing with a situation at hand using Ni and Fe you may also use Te or Si, but not Ne or Ti, because that would throw your world upside down, like a ZEN slap in the face. the style defines all the "borders" between "objects". because really everything is either one-ness or emptiness. in order to switch the style you would have to break on through to the other side (as "the doors" put it). the known set of objects would dissolve into something unrecognizable (new)
    this should at least be true for your first function.

    if people claim to use both Ne and Ni its most likely because they do not understand the principle of introversion and extroversion. they observe that they deal with psychological topics or topics maintained in memory or fantasy in an intuitive way, all of which they think of as "internal", but they also deal with observations of people in an intuitive way. so they thing its Ni and Ne. its one of them, all the time.

    another possibility is that they are confusing either Fi or Ti with Ni and correctly notice their Ne.

    if you work (live) consciously with Ni, Ne may come to you in dreams. or maybe not.

    but thats just the way i see it
    basically i made it up. its kind of implied by all i define as "known".

    on the other hand, if you look at that animated picture with the dancing woman who turns .. the break from right brain to left brain is pretty seamless, so maybe my ZEN fantasy is over the top
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    Last edited by nanook; 02-28-2009 at 06:06 PM. Reason: stupid fucking typos in the function letters

  2. #12
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    I've learned a lot about MBTI and cognitive processes in the last few months, and I still think I'm some kind of a "balanced" NTJ (strong T, weak J). A strange combination for sure, I'll try to point out the discrepancies:

    - I love debates and mental challenges, but it's not absolutely necessary for me to be 'the leader' (+INTJ)
    - Ni > Te (+I)
    - I often speak before thinking, definitely louder than most introverts (+ENTJ)
    - VERY expressive facial gestures (+E)
    - Large groups 'drain' me (+I)
    - Love to play "devil's advocate" and stand up for those I don't even like for the sake of honing my rhetorical skills (+E)
    - I'm always wearing a mask of some sorts: I'll easily talk to strangers in a carefree and humorous way... (+E)
    - ... but I won't let anybody close to me until I'm 100% sure of their intentions, I won't show you my 'true' form for a very long time (this includes friends and most past relationships, +I)
    - Not intimidating, but tough and tenacious, I won't quit until I win

    Guess that makes me an XNTJ. It's true that I equally enjoy being "the wizard of Oz" and "the man behind the curtain" in most situations.

  3. #13

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    EDIT Maybe the chart doesn't actually answer the question. I agree with what the others said. From a practical perspective I just think of Fi and Fe as simply feeling and Se Si as sensing. In that way it becomes useful to me at least. Otherwise my mind gets caught up in theory.
    Especially since I relate strongly to the socionics model of ISFP also.



    This interesting chart MBTI Proximity Chart may help.
    Reading the Chart

    This is a Karnaugh map, arranging the 16 temperament types so that each type is surrounded by the four types that most closely resemble it (by having three letters in common). Note that when you go off the edge it "wraps around" to the other side. So for example, INTP is surrounded by its four nearest neighbors ENTP, ISTP, INFP, and INTJ.

    Each temperament has one exact opposite. This opposite is always located two squares away in a diagonal direction go whichever direction you need so you stay on the grid. For example, ESTP and INFJ are opposites.

  4. #14
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    socially promiscuous!? well! i never!
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #15
    garbage
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    From most every possible angle, I identify with ENTJ, then ENTP closely after, then ENFP, and maybe ENFJ after that. I regularly test as any of the four.

    My weak judging preference totally blows up in terms of function order because the orders of ENTJ (Te, Ni, ...) and ENTP (Ne, Ti, ...) are pretty well different.. but that's why I personally don't believe function order to be relevant or accurate after, say, the first two functions, and that the introverted and extroverted versions of functions aren't necessarily as different as many believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    2) Say an ENFP is Ne, Fi, Te, Si. Can they or any other type move towards being more in the middle of a function-like Between Ne or Ni? My mind says this seems more different than swapping a primary for a secondary pref, but your thoughts?
    In my opinion, just as N/S preference is a sliding scale, so is Ne/Ni.. it all depends on the degree of preference toward applying it to the extroverted or introverted realms. My ENFJ friend, for example, practices absolutely no empathy at all, so he's not gonna prefer Fi over Fe very readily, but I see myself preferring Ne and Ni nearly equally.

    I guess this is in line with what Evan is saying as well..

  6. #16
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    For starters the MBTI model is set up to reflect preferences so there is no "in-between". A preference is a preference. The percentages or strengths of the test are irrelevant, it just measures how you answered those particular questions, not how much of an N you are. It's either or: N or S.

    We use all of the functions to some extent so someone could easily have good use of both Se and Ne, one will just be their default or preference.
    I dont buy that these are simply preferences. I think you are dealing with true biological differences that begin to emerge quite early. You naturally are more skilled at certain combinations than others. Ie your brain is wired to work certain ways and process information a certain way. Perhaps I missed the thread where we established thie diff betweeen preferences and cognitive differences. The "preferences" are truly cognitive and biological.

    So my goal is to try and understand what cobinations are allowed and what are "forbidden" I guess. What you say above seems flawed.

  7. #17
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    i believe that switching that style (the x-version) for a specific function is much harder, than checking out a known set of objects using different functions. so if you are dealing with a situation at hand using Ni and Fe you may also use Te or Si, but not Ne or Ti, because that would throw your world upside down, like a ZEN slap in the face. the style defines all the "borders" between "objects". because really everything is either one-ness or emptiness. in order to switch the style you would have to break on through to the other side (as "the doors" put it). the known set of objects would dissolve into something unrecognizable (new)
    this should at least be true for your first function.

    if people claim to use both Ne and Ni its most likely because they do not understand the principle of introversion and extroversion. they observe that they deal with psychological topics or topics maintained in memory or fantasy in an intuitive way, all of which they think of as "internal", but they also deal with observations of people in an intuitive way. so they thing its Ni and Ne. its one of them, all the time.

    another possibility is that they are confusing either Fi or Ti with Ni and correctly notice their Ne.

    if you work (live) consciously with Ni, Ne may come to you in dreams. or maybe not.

    but thats just the way i see it
    basically i made it up. its kind of implied by all i define as "known".

    on the other hand, if you look at that animated picture with the dancing woman who turns .. the break from right brain to left brain is pretty seamless, so maybe my ZEN fantasy is over the top
    I think you may be on to something here. I use Ne mostly but sometimes can shift into an odd Ni like mode after being isolated or alone for days ata atime. It is like becoming another person. Do you think meditation (or medication ) helps folks make that particlar transition?

    From observing others I see that Se and Si are like polar opposites and could never simply swap. The same for Te and Ti but not to such an extreme. I have a verys strong Fi but I feel Fe is controlling and detest it honestly. So I think this internalization/externalization may be a bigger change than actually switching to a different function altogether.

  8. #18
    garbage
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    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    I think you may be on to something here. I use Ne mostly but sometimes can shift into an odd Ni like mode after being isolated or alone for days ata atime. It is like becoming another person. Do you think meditation (or medication ) helps folks make that particlar transition?
    A meditation that focuses inward could likely bring out inward-focusing functions.

    Quote Originally Posted by happy puppy View Post
    From observing others I see that Se and Si are like polar opposites and could never simply swap. The same for Te and Ti but not to such an extreme. I have a verys strong Fi but I feel Fe is controlling and detest it honestly. So I think this internalization/externalization may be a bigger change than actually switching to a different function altogether.
    I agree that Se/Si seem to be the most "different" introverted/extroverted versions of the same function. I think the perceived stark difference between Se and Si is due to the fact that they work in a very direct and tangible way and so can be more readily apparent, but there's definitely some overlap in their definitions.

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