User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 95

  1. #41
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    LII
    Posts
    2,320

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    What are your reasons for disagreeing?
    Well, it seems that Fi users are agreeing with me, so my views aren't completely unfounded. Elaboration to follow:

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    The definition of Fi is as follows.

    Feeling: A cognitive unconscious disposition towards processing emotion.

    Introversion: A cognitive unconscious disposition to be cognitively inspired by the inner life more than the external world.

    What this simply means is that an introvert's mind unconsciously responds more easily to his own thoughts rather than entities outside of him (perhaps his observations of the external world).

    Hence, Introverted Feeling is a tendency to process emotion in relation to the intrinsic content of the mind in question.

    The tendency to emote leads a person to be interested in values as such a person is closely in tune with his likes and dislikes (personal values). An Introverted Feeler is in tune with the sentiments generated within himself (because they are generated within his mind they are concerned with his inner being more than the external world), hence he is intensely focused on his personal values (or strictly speaking how he feels) more than the community. (An Extroverted Feeler on the hand, whose sentiments are more concerned with the external world is more focused on the values of others and inevitably his values mirror those of others almost by default.)
    I have a different definition of Fi. Fi is nearly the same as Ti. It builds a model of the universe, using information provided by Pe. The difference is that Fi assigns a subjective judgment also, based on how the piece of information makes the user feel. This is connected to other pieces of data, and a model is created.

    Because Fi is simply a tendency to emote in relation to the inner life, it ipso facto lacks logical structure. (I anticipate some may remonstrate that there are logical Fi people in the world. I do not wish to deny that. However, they are logical not because of their Fi faculty but due to their competence with their Thinking faculty) Fi, unlike Fe that conforms to the rigid structure of the external world of values (therefore does not change easily, it changes in a manner akin to the whims of fashion, in small ways. We notice that significant traditions and values of the community rarely radically change, and hence neither does Fe for this reason.), has no solid foundation. It is founded on mere fleeting feelings. (There is no solid foundation because Fi in itself does not conceptualize feelings, it only processes them, hence there is nothing stopping Fi from going from one temporary passion to another.)
    Here's where your problem seems to be. You think emotions are fleeting. This isn't true. Emotions are a response meant to move people towards positive things, and away from negative things. Purely a survival mechanism from an evolutionary standpoint. Therefore, it is possible to predict emotions. Whatever hurts the user evokes a negative emotional response, whatever aids the user evokes a positive emotional response. They are not random, it is in fact quite logical.

    This is all recorded in the Fi users model. As more information is gathered and added to the model, it becomes more secure, much in the same way as a Ti model.

    The Fi model is changed when a contradiction is discovered in it (in an entirely logical process).
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  2. #42

    Default

    Some people are talking about Fi only.
    Others are talking about combinations of functions.
    Some others are reflecting on their type.

    We need to clarify and agree on what we are talking about.

  3. #43
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,003

    Default

    What is the point of talking about Fi only? It functions based on the Extroverted Perception function backing it. I mean sure, someone who just uses Fi will be totally illogical. Anyone who just used one function would be illogical.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  4. #44
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    LII
    Posts
    2,320

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    What is the point of talking about Fi only? It functions based on the Extroverted Perception function backing it. I mean sure, someone who just uses Fi will be totally illogical. Anyone who just used one function would be illogical.
    And probably non-functional.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  5. #45
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Well, it seems that Fi users are agreeing with me, so my views aren't completely unfounded. Elaboration to follow.
    That does not mean that your views are unfounded.



    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    I have a different definition of Fi. Fi is nearly the same as Ti. It builds a model of the universe, using information provided by Pe. The difference is that Fi assigns a subjective judgment also, based on how the piece of information makes the user feel. This is connected to other pieces of data, and a model is created..
    Constructing the model of a universe requires logical Thinking. Feeling is distinct from Thinking. Therefore Fi cannot be constructing a model of the universe.



    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Here's where your problem seems to be. You think emotions are fleeting. This isn't true. Emotions are a response meant to move people towards positive things, and away from negative things. Purely a survival mechanism from an evolutionary standpoint. Therefore, it is possible to predict emotions. Whatever hurts the user evokes a negative emotional response, whatever aids the user evokes a positive emotional response. They are not random, it is in fact quite logical...
    Yes, evolution has conditioned us to emote in a certain way. Yet unless you think logically to organize your emotions you will not be clearly aware of what your emotions are. For this reason you could be persuaded to change your mind about how you feel with regard to a certain entity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    This is all recorded in the Fi users model. As more information is gathered and added to the model, it becomes more secure, much in the same way as a Ti model....
    An Fi person cannot be clearly aware of what his worldview is unless he uses Thinking to analyze his views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    The Fi model is changed when a contradiction is discovered in it (in an entirely logical process).
    A discovery of a contradiction requires logical analysis, this is within the province of Thinking.

    What seems to be confusing you is the idea that Fi people use Thinking and you seem to attribute the work that they do to the function of Fi. That is a category mistake. If Fi by definition of itself involves Thinking it would not be a separate function from Thinking. But it is a separate function, hence Thinking cannot be part of Fi.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #46
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    What is the point of talking about Fi only? It functions based on the Extroverted Perception function backing it. I mean sure, someone who just uses Fi will be totally illogical. Anyone who just used one function would be illogical.
    Most dominant Fi people rely heavily on Fi, hence their behavior would be reminiscent of somebody who uses Fi only. Some Fi doms will not be function in this manner, yet such persons are rare.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #47
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,003

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Most dominant Fi people rely heavily on Fi, hence their behavior would be reminiscent of somebody who uses Fi only. Some Fi doms will not be function in this manner, yet such persons are rare.
    Behavior =/= how you function.

    Also you should read the post I put on the last page, you seemed to have neglected/missed it.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  8. #48
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Socionics
    LII
    Posts
    2,320

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    That does not mean that your views are unfounded.
    Of course not, but when trying to understand something one does not have, it helps to get the views of people who do have it.

    Constructing the model of a universe requires logical Thinking. Feeling is distinct from Thinking. Therefore Fi cannot be constructing a model of the universe.
    Yes it does, but perhaps you would understand better if I rephrased it. Fi takes data from Pe, notes the emotional reaction to it, and stores it. It connects this piece of data to other pieces of data in a process similiar to how Ti operates.

    So it creates a model, where everything is categorized to varying degrees as "good" or "bad"

    Yes, evolution has conditioned us to emote in a certain way. Yet unless you think logically to organize your emotions you will not be clearly aware of what your emotions are. For this reason you could be persuaded to change your mind about how you feel with regard to a certain entity.
    I disagree. There's a reason that low Fi people say they often don't understand their emotions (see this thread).

    An Fi person cannot be clearly aware of what his worldview is unless he uses Thinking to analyze his views.
    You say this, but you don't back this up with any argumentation or evidence.

    A discovery of a contradiction requires logical analysis, this is within the province of Thinking.
    No. Logic isn't the province of thinking. Ti does not use logic, instead its more like this:

    "Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it."

    - Introverted Thinking

    Fi is like that, but includes among the "essential qualities" of something, the emotional response it evokes.

    What seems to be confusing you is the idea that Fi people use Thinking and you seem to attribute the work that they do to the function of Fi. That is a category mistake. If Fi by definition of itself involves Thinking it would not be a separate function from Thinking. But it is a separate function, hence Thinking cannot be part of Fi.
    I think what is confusing you is that logic is the province of thinking, as I elaborated on above. I am of the opinion that Feeling and Thinking are nearly the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Most dominant Fi people rely heavily on Fi, hence their behavior would be reminiscent of somebody who uses Fi only. Some Fi doms will not be function in this manner, yet such persons are rare.
    Does this apply equally for all dominant functions, or just Fi? Either way, I disagree. You are making many statements of fact, yet you are not supporting them at all.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  9. #49
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,003

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Constructing the model of a universe requires logical Thinking. Feeling is distinct from Thinking. Therefore Fi cannot be constructing a model of the universe.
    So you're trying to say I can't envision a world based on how I feel it should be based on emotions because it relies on logic? It isn't based on logic about how I feel the world should be, I didn't use logic in constructing this. Yet I still have this vision in mind, or as he calls it a model of the world. This isn't a paradox, you can do things entirely with emotions. You misinterpreted his point about constructing a model of the universe. You need to explain why you think it requires logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Yes, evolution has conditioned us to emote in a certain way. Yet unless you think logically to organize your emotions you will not be clearly aware of what your emotions are. For this reason you could be persuaded to change your mind about how you feel with regard to a certain entity.
    Why do I have to organize my emotions to know what I'm feeling? I know exactly how I'm feeling all the time, and it's not organized in a logical way. You will know if you're angry very clearly, you will know if you are happy, you will know if you are sad. This doesn't require being organized in a logical way. It's a moot point to be arguing this because a feeler will use logic, and they will know how they are feeling in more complicated situations because of this logic. From that you can say that the person won't be manipulated into feeling a different way, since Fi users most of the time clearly know why we feel the way we do, and from that we can't simply be manipulated about feeling a different way about something unless someone convinced us that the source of how we feel is illogical and/or makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    An Fi person cannot be clearly aware of what his worldview is unless he uses Thinking to analyze his views.
    Why are you arguing this? Fi users employ their Te to analyze their feelings regardless, whether they know it or not. It's an unconscious process in our minds. Just because it's inferior doesn't mean it isn't used. That's like saying an INTP will be oblivious to all emotions unless he uses feeling to analyze it the situation and come up with an emotion to feel. Everyone thinker unconsciously feels emotions, as does every feeler unconsciously use logical reasoning to some degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    A discovery of a contradiction requires logical analysis, this is within the province of Thinking.
    What about an emotional contradiction? This is what he meant. We realize that what we are feeling about something doesn't quite fit anymore, so we change. The process is entirely logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    What seems to be confusing you is the idea that Fi people use Thinking and you seem to attribute the work that they do to the function of Fi. That is a category mistake. If Fi by definition of itself involves Thinking it would not be a separate function from Thinking. But it is a separate function, hence Thinking cannot be part of Fi.
    This just seems misinformed. Logic =/= thinking whatsoever, not in this case. People don't use reasoning differently if they have Ti or Te, it's all apart of being a human being. It transcends MBTI. This seems to be where your points are flawed.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  10. #50
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Yes it does, but perhaps you would understand better if I rephrased it. Fi takes data from Pe, notes the emotional reaction to it, and stores it. It connects this piece of data to other pieces of data in a process similiar to how Ti operates...
    Perception collects data. Thinking unconsciously organizes the data. Feeling regards the data that has been organized as either good or bad. Feeling does not in itself organize data, it only comments on what has already been organized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    So it creates a model, where everything is categorized to varying degrees as "good" or "bad"...
    Thinking creates such a model, Feeling does not.



    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    I disagree. There's a reason that low Fi people say they often don't understand their emotions (see this thread). "...
    Understanding your emotions requires processing them and analyzing them. People with supressed F dont understand it because they dont properly process it, people with supressed T dont understand it because they dont analyze it properly.



    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    You say this, but you don't back this up with any argumentation or evidence."...
    Re-read my posts.




    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    No. Logic isn't the province of thinking. Ti does not use logic, instead its more like this:."...
    What is Thinking if not the use of logic?



    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Fi is like that, but includes among the "essential qualities" of something, the emotional response it evokes.:."...
    How exactly does it do that?



    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    I think what is confusing you is that logic is the province of thinking, as I elaborated on above. I am of the opinion that Feeling and Thinking are nearly the same thing..:."...
    What reason is there to believe in this? You made the claim, the onus is on you to support it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Does this apply equally for all dominant functions, or just Fi? Either way, I disagree. You are making many statements of fact, yet you are not supporting them at all.
    You need to re-read my posts many more times. Most people rely heavily on their dominant function yes. So, T doms would rely little on Feeling and as a result would resemble the kind of a person who uses only Thinking.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

Similar Threads

  1. How current are your current events?
    By Survive & Stay Free in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-09-2017, 01:49 AM
  2. How strong are your functions?
    By Stansmith in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-01-2013, 05:04 PM
  3. [Fe] What are your "values"?
    By sculpting in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 07-15-2010, 12:42 AM
  4. [MBTItm] INFJs-how developed are your 'sensing' skills
    By karenk in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-03-2008, 12:45 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO