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  1. #21
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    An Ni perspective leads one to seek out the leverage points of any system. What is triggering what?
    I liked this bit of the description, Ni is always trying to figure out what the underlying cause is. It goes under the surface and wants to understand what makes everything tick. That understanding leads to the links in a different way than Ne does it.

  2. #22
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    I liked this bit of the description, Ni is always trying to figure out what the underlying cause is. It goes under the surface and wants to understand what makes everything tick. That understanding leads to the links in a different way than Ne does it.
    Yes! This aspect of Ni is so strong in me that I find it difficult to listen to someone who is talking at length - my mind keeps simultaneously trying to figure out what is going on beneath the surface with that person, what is the real purpose of their communication, what is the gist of what they're trying to say, what is important and what is just padding, how can I best reach this person etc, etc.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  3. #23
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    There's nothing quite like a well thrown monkey wrench.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Here is where I'm confused... how are archetypes in anyway "mystical"?

    I know one of Jung's theories besides cognitive function are archetypes and the collective unconscious, which as Babylon said there's no evidence in support of. Putting that aside, I can see how Ni would grab onto archetypes due to its symbolic nature. But I don't see the link between the archetypes and predicting the future.

    The Ah-hah moments of Ni happens when it teases out hidden connections between ideas and from that revealing some underlying pattern. The Ni intuitive hunch is nothing more than an expansion of that. Ni works with the underlying assumption that things are likely connected and if you search deep enough you'll see the pattern. Anything that doesn't seem to fit this pattern sets off a warning. Something's off, which needs further looking into.

    The reverse case is "I 'know' this is so", but I can't tell you why. That would be Ni sensing the pattern but you're unable to articulate just what exactly this pattern might be.

    Neither of these are in anyway "mystical" or "prophetical". Because if you use Ti and look back, more times than not you'll see exactly what pieces of info led you to those conclusions. This isn't due to god or some higher being telling you things.
    I like this and your other definitions of what Ni is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendo Barbarosa View Post
    Edit: In regards to the art thing, I often feel like the process for my art is:

    a.) create an art piece
    b.) ponder over it
    c.) discover it's meaning

    notice which element is LAST in that order...it always freaks me out how my mind can apparently think of things or come up with things that, consciously, it has no capacity to understand. A-ha moments for me tend to be really spatial. Like the way I build stories in my worlds tends to be, I will draw the character first, then maybe a few days later while thinking about the drawing, suddenly from nowhere it will come to me who the character is, what their purpose is in the world, and how they fit into the "pattern" of the narrative. Maybe that's not at all artistic Ni, but when I first heard the description of the characteristics of it, I just automatically made those connections with how I can definitively discover territories in my imagination.

    Yes. That's how it happens with me. Almost word-for-word. And I'm guessing that if you stop and think about why you're doing something in your art, while you're physically creating it, you suddenly lose whatever connection there was and start overthinking things. (I do that a lot anyway. That's why when anyone tells me to "You should be thinking about x, y, z." I completely ignore that command and just log the information away and draw what needs to be drawn how I feel it should be depicted. Then I go back and change things around.)
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

  5. #25
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    You'll note that I actually said "appear to be mystical" rather than "is mystical" in my original post.

    ...

    Ni in particular is interested in the unseen and unknown (at least it is in me!), it therefore has a tendency to wander into territories for which there are no rational or scientific definitions, or even, sometimes, a language to express what it is perceiving. This, to my mind, is highly desirable - how else can new knowledge be discovered? If we were only ever allowed to use what is known and commonly accepted as "facts" there would be no new knowledge and no point whatsoever to intuition.
    Ah, yes I agree with you there that to the outside observer... Ni might appear to be mystical. Actually sometimes my Ni also come up with surprising connections. Especially when I'm not even thinking about the problem and just doing chores like washing dishes and it hits me.

    In a way as you said, all that seems like an subconscious sort of processing. I wouldn't attribute it to the collective unconscious, but definitely it's useful in exploring new ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendo Barbarosa View Post
    Edit: In regards to the art thing, I often feel like the process for my art is:

    a.) create an art piece
    b.) ponder over it
    c.) discover it's meaning

    notice which element is LAST in that order...it always freaks me out how my mind can apparently think of things or come up with things that, consciously, it has no capacity to understand. A-ha moments for me tend to be really spatial. Like the way I build stories in my worlds tends to be, I will draw the character first, then maybe a few days later while thinking about the drawing, suddenly from nowhere it will come to me who the character is, what their purpose is in the world, and how they fit into the "pattern" of the narrative. Maybe that's not at all artistic Ni, but when I first heard the description of the characteristics of it, I just automatically made those connections with how I can definitively discover territories in my imagination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    Yes. That's how it happens with me. Almost word-for-word. And I'm guessing that if you stop and think about why you're doing something in your art, while you're physically creating it, you suddenly lose whatever connection there was and start overthinking things. (I do that a lot anyway. That's why when anyone tells me to "You should be thinking about x, y, z." I completely ignore that command and just log the information away and draw what needs to be drawn how I feel it should be depicted. Then I go back and change things around.)
    Hmmm that's interesting. The way I go about things is a bit different. I randomly stumble upon an idea that I thought would be interesting... then I grab my pencil and paper to start sketching whatever I had on my mind. It's as if I have the image or the major portion of it in my head and I'm just frantically trying to replicate that on paper before the image goes poof. I leave the details last... but the concept comes to me more or less completely before I even pick up the pencil. But then again I'm more of an idea person than an artist. Perhaps that's why it's different.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  6. #26
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Hmmm that's interesting. The way I go about things is a bit different. I randomly stumble upon an idea that I thought would be interesting... then I grab my pencil and paper to start sketching whatever I had on my mind. It's as if I have the image or the major portion of it in my head and I'm just frantically trying to replicate that on paper before the image goes poof. I leave the details last... but the concept comes to me more or less completely before I even pick up the pencil. But then again I'm more of an idea person than an artist. Perhaps that's why it's different.
    My approach is similar to yours, but then I'm also an ideas person. However, I have had some experience of the "artistic" thing. Perhaps Ni can work both ways, according to the need?
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  7. #27
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyondaurora View Post
    Because this description is so different than the usual ones, I'm curious to hear whether you agree with this description and whether you find it sufficient (as in, it is not necessary to add the 'future seeing' aspect of Ni to the description).
    Indeed. Thompson is the only Jung author I've ever recommended. I don't even recommend Jung. He fucked a lot up.

  8. #28
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Yes! This aspect of Ni is so strong in me that I find it difficult to listen to someone who is talking at length - my mind keeps simultaneously trying to figure out what is going on beneath the surface with that person, what is the real purpose of their communication, what is the gist of what they're trying to say, what is important and what is just padding
    no wonder they say INFJs are natural conspiracy theorists

    im glad i have the power (Ni)...but i prefer to keep it a slave to the Te-Se axis....

  9. #29
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    no wonder they say INFJs are natural conspiracy theorists
    Oh yes!

    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    im glad i have the power (Ni)...but i prefer to keep it a slave to the Te-Se axis....
    Nooooo!!!! What a terrible fate - set it free!!!
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  10. #30
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Oh yes!



    Nooooo!!!! What a terrible fate - set it free!!!
    {sees how unhappy most INFJs are} ....um... no thanks! ...inferior Fi is bad enough, i dont need Dom Ni too!

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