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  1. #11
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beyondaurora View Post


    Nightning, it seems to me you are describing Ne, in that you are brainstorming various reasons for why a situation is.

    The furniture example given illustrates the mapping of signs (mahogony furniture) to an accepted meaning (upper-class status).

    I highlight the following:



    Per this description, Ni takes the accepted mapping and flips it (and/or turns it upside down and inside out!) to uncover various potential.
    No! That is not what Ni does. Ni considers ALL variation of possibilities... from the direct opposites of mahogony furniture for the rich to furniture for the poor... AND everything in between of that.

    Grabbing a snippet from yesterday...
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Ni person (NJ) will focus more on a specific aspect or attribute of a mental representation of a pineapple and see how that specific aspect links to other things. For example pineapples is for eating, you get canned slices of pineapples and those typically have a whole down the center because they're de-cored, then it reminds you of donuts, chocolate glazed donuts and now suddenly you want hot chocolate.
    If you look at the example there... I went from pineapple to hot chocolate. The underlying theme is "food" because I was hungry. But I did not take the opposite of a pineapple. For what is the opposite of a pineapple? I've simply taken an attribute of the pineapple and looked at other things with a similar attribute. I could equally have focused on the spikes on the outside of a pineapple and ended up with a time bomb. Pineapple -> spikes -> spikes hurts/nails -> exploding nails -> bomb with embedded nails (OUCH) -> time bomb. Looking at just the opposites or turning things "inside-out/upside-down" would not be the complete picture of what Ni does.

    As I understand it, Ne differs from Ni by taking a static view of the object and imagining how it can interact with various situations. Which means a pineapple for Ne would be a pineapple... what it physically contains, not what concepts are associated with it. So Ne ask questions like what sort of things can you do with a pineapple. Eat it, cut it, throw it, make a battery out of it, carve it like a jack-o-lantern etc.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  2. #12
    beyondaurora
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    Very cool, nightning. I'm with you now.

  3. #13
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    I'm a huge fan of Lenore Thomson's work and I consider her description of Ni (and the additions posted on the related wiki) to be the definitive one.

    Nightning, you also have a clear understanding of this complex function and how it operates.

    However, there is a deeper side to Ni which does appear to be mystical in it's operation. Whether it is or not is open to debate, but this deep aspect of Ni is entirely consistent with the "mapping signs to meanings" definition. I'm referring to Ni's ability to perceive, understand and even interact with the Archetypes of the collective unconscious described by Jung. These are powerful semi-autonomous psychological constructs which are contained within each person, and yet seem to be able to transcend individual psyches and manifest in a collective fashion.

    For example, they are what used to be known as the "Gods". Ni seems to "get" the archetypes like no other function and this is perhaps why INJs were often shamans or priests in ancient cultures.

    Archetypes can be seen as the ultimate arbiters of meaning - they are powerful and not to be underestimated. An out-of-control negative archetypal manifestation can have dire consequences, for example, mob violence or mass suicides.

    Ni has the ability to map archetypal signs (the visible manifestations of an archetype) and meanings and this is perhaps where its greatest power lies. The much-discussed prophetic power of Ni derives from this ability, since archetypal forces have a certain predictability and inevitability about them. If Ni can detect and correctly identify the underlying archetypes at play in a situation, then it has a decent shot at accurately predicting how the situation will play out and intuiting what consequences will ensue.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  4. #14
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    I'm a huge fan of Lenore Thomson's work and I consider her description of Ni (and the additions posted on the related wiki) to be the definitive one.

    Nightning, you also have a clear understanding of this complex function and how it operates.

    However, there is a deeper side to Ni which does appear to be mystical in it's operation. Whether it is or not is open to debate, but this deep aspect of Ni is entirely consistent with the "mapping signs to meanings" definition. I'm referring to Ni's ability to perceive, understand and even interact with the Archetypes of the collective unconscious described by Jung. These are powerful semi-autonomous psychological constructs which are contained within each person, and yet seem to be able to transcend individual psyches and manifest in a collective fashion.

    For example, they are what used to be known as the "Gods". Ni seems to "get" the archetypes like no other function and this is perhaps why INJs were often shamans or priests in ancient cultures.

    Archetypes can be seen as the ultimate arbiters of meaning - they are powerful and not to be underestimated. An out-of-control negative archetypal manifestation can have dire consequences, for example, mob violence or mass suicides.

    Ni has the ability to map archetypal signs (the visible manifestations of an archetype) and meanings and this is perhaps where its greatest power lies. The much-discussed prophetic power of Ni derives from this ability, since archetypal forces have a certain predictability and inevitability about them. If Ni can detect and correctly identify the underlying archetypes at play in a situation, then it has a decent shot at accurately predicting how the situation will play out and intuiting what consequences will ensue.
    there is 0 evidence for a collective unconscious....i smell pseudoscience


    on a nicer note: i agree that Ni has an amazing ability to work with the archetypes that the brain has been able to identity and collect. To me Ni is supercomputing...its taking in loads of info, and pumping out the bottom line meta-analysis that can make it seem like someone somehow pulled out mystical truths simply from "percieving" the world.

  5. #15
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    I'm a huge fan of Lenore Thomson's work and I consider her description of Ni (and the additions posted on the related wiki) to be the definitive one.

    Nightning, you also have a clear understanding of this complex function and how it operates.

    However, there is a deeper side to Ni which does appear to be mystical in it's operation. Whether it is or not is open to debate, but this deep aspect of Ni is entirely consistent with the "mapping signs to meanings" definition. I'm referring to Ni's ability to perceive, understand and even interact with the Archetypes of the collective unconscious described by Jung. These are powerful semi-autonomous psychological constructs which are contained within each person, and yet seem to be able to transcend individual psyches and manifest in a collective fashion.

    For example, they are what used to be known as the "Gods". Ni seems to "get" the archetypes like no other function and this is perhaps why INJs were often shamans or priests in ancient cultures.

    Archetypes can be seen as the ultimate arbiters of meaning - they are powerful and not to be underestimated. An out-of-control negative archetypal manifestation can have dire consequences, for example, mob violence or mass suicides.

    Ni has the ability to map archetypal signs (the visible manifestations of an archetype) and meanings and this is perhaps where its greatest power lies. The much-discussed prophetic power of Ni derives from this ability, since archetypal forces have a certain predictability and inevitability about them. If Ni can detect and correctly identify the underlying archetypes at play in a situation, then it has a decent shot at accurately predicting how the situation will play out and intuiting what consequences will ensue.
    Here is where I'm confused... how are archetypes in anyway "mystical"?

    I know one of Jung's theories besides cognitive function are archetypes and the collective unconscious, which as Babylon said there's no evidence in support of. Putting that aside, I can see how Ni would grab onto archetypes due to its symbolic nature. But I don't see the link between the archetypes and predicting the future.

    The Ah-hah moments of Ni happens when it teases out hidden connections between ideas and from that revealing some underlying pattern. The Ni intuitive hunch is nothing more than an expansion of that. Ni works with the underlying assumption that things are likely connected and if you search deep enough you'll see the pattern. Anything that doesn't seem to fit this pattern sets off a warning. Something's off, which needs further looking into.

    The reverse case is "I 'know' this is so", but I can't tell you why. That would be Ni sensing the pattern but you're unable to articulate just what exactly this pattern might be.

    Neither of these are in anyway "mystical" or "prophetical". Because if you use Ti and look back, more times than not you'll see exactly what pieces of info led you to those conclusions. This isn't due to god or some higher being telling you things.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  6. #16
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Here is where I'm confused... how are archetypes in anyway "mystical"?

    I know one of Jung's theories besides cognitive function are archetypes and the collective unconscious, which as Babylon said there's no evidence in support of. Putting that aside, I can see how Ni would grab onto archetypes due to its symbolic nature. But I don't see the link between the archetypes and predicting the future.

    The Ah-hah moments of Ni happens when it teases out hidden connections between ideas and from that revealing some underlying pattern. The Ni intuitive hunch is nothing more than an expansion of that. Ni works with the underlying assumption that things are likely connected and if you search deep enough you'll see the pattern. Anything that doesn't seem to fit this pattern sets off a warning. Something's off, which needs further looking into.

    The reverse case is "I 'know' this is so", but I can't tell you why. That would be Ni sensing the pattern but you're unable to articulate just what exactly this pattern might be.

    Neither of these are in anyway "mystical" or "prophetical". Because if you use Ti and look back, more times than not you'll see exactly what pieces of info led you to those conclusions. This isn't due to god or some higher being telling you things.
    First off, I am a scientist by training and profession, and I believe that there is a scientific explanation for everything, ultimately. However, there is a great deal of human experience which science cannot yet explain, and some of this experience falls under the category of "mystical". You'll note that I actually said "appear to be mystical" rather than "is mystical" in my original post.

    Ni in particular is interested in the unseen and unknown (at least it is in me!), it therefore has a tendency to wander into territories for which there are no rational or scientific definitions, or even, sometimes, a language to express what it is perceiving. This, to my mind, is highly desirable - how else can new knowledge be discovered? If we were only ever allowed to use what is known and commonly accepted as "facts" there would be no new knowledge and no point whatsoever to intuition.

    The archetypes are now a fairly well-accepted part of human psychology, and you cannot have the archetypes without a "collective unconscious", since that is where they dwell! There is actually plenty of evidence (much of it anecdotal or observational, admittedly) for a collective unconscious, and I believe that one day there will be some scientific proof of its existence. However, this may take a long time, for how do you measure such a nebulous concept?

    In the meantime, those of us who have had some direct experience of the power of these mysterious archetypes will continue to be fascinated by the whole subject, and will continue to struggle to describe this territory in ways which make sense to others. As I said before, there isn't even an effective language to properly describe the deep levels of the human psyche - all we can really do is hint at what lies there. However, I am personally convinced that this is a fertile area for study, with enormous implications for the psychological evolution of our species.

    I'll shut up now, after making this plea to all you NT rationals out there: please, please leave something of the mysterious and mystical out there for us poor Idealists to cling to! You'll really miss us if you "rationalise" us out of existence!
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  7. #17
    Senior Member Hendo Barbarosa's Avatar
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    Oh man, the Ni ideas in this thread rule. On a personal level, it's definitely tripping me out to see the correlations with how I do art, as well.

  8. #18
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    i want this to be confirmed by enfj and entj.
    also the tiny opposite part about Ne by enfp and entp.

  9. #19
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendo Barbarosa View Post
    Oh man, the Ni ideas in this thread rule. On a personal level, it's definitely tripping me out to see the correlations with how I do art, as well.
    Please expand on this a little: Ni art is one of the best ways to express concepts for which there are no words.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  10. #20
    Senior Member Hendo Barbarosa's Avatar
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    Oh also, I might add that even though Ni probably isn't mystical, the mere breakdown of how it functions should prove that it is the basis for (essentially erroneous) attributions of mystical or prophetic nature.

    (This is coming from 23 years experience as a born-again christian. Sometimes I feel like something comes from somewhere else with Ni. I know it's not true, but I can understand the misconception, at least)

    Edit: In regards to the art thing, I often feel like the process for my art is:

    a.) create an art piece
    b.) ponder over it
    c.) discover it's meaning

    notice which element is LAST in that order...it always freaks me out how my mind can apparently think of things or come up with things that, consciously, it has no capacity to understand. A-ha moments for me tend to be really spatial. Like the way I build stories in my worlds tends to be, I will draw the character first, then maybe a few days later while thinking about the drawing, suddenly from nowhere it will come to me who the character is, what their purpose is in the world, and how they fit into the "pattern" of the narrative. Maybe that's not at all artistic Ni, but when I first heard the description of the characteristics of it, I just automatically made those connections with how I can definitively discover territories in my imagination.

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