ENTPs do you relate: black and white vision and dislike fuzziness

[jenocyde]

I don't know... my life is constantly fuzzy, but I am not going to deny that when it comes to decisions, mine are pretty black and white. I rarely make such decisions, though.

 

[EcK]

Gray fuzz, all day everyday. Drives other people insane, but what am I supposed to do about it?

start wearing grey as a warning?

 

[miss fortune]

I don't know... my life is constantly fuzzy, but I am not going to deny that when it comes to decisions, mine are pretty black and white. I rarely make such decisions, though.

decisions are to be made with the flip of a coin- therefore, if it turns out poorly it's the coin's fault!

still kind of a gray area- I'm too damned indecisive because either neither option seems pleasant or both seem intriguing!

 

[EcK]

decisions are to be made with the flip of a coin- therefore, if it turns out poorly it's the coin's fault!

yup! I married the coin.

And if 'in ur heart of heart' you wanted to pick the other one, u'll throw the coin again anyway. It's win win really.

The coin is wise, praise the coin!

 

[redacted]

That's because ur an infj with a pimped up Ti, not an entp.


edit: I think the main problem here is that I and perhaps entps in general will even argue expressions such as 'black and white' and 'fuzziness'. You could say for example that in the end if there's an absolute truth there's a level of 'black and white interpretation' to everything, but then again even if you had that knowledge it'd still be like seeing an apple, what you see is just a construct based upon a 'reality' (you can't even say thing, things are a mental construct).
And hell, I could argue every single world for a year if I wanted to be 'precise', so I can't work in 'black and white'.

Think of a quantum computer, the 0\1 can be 60% at 0 and 40% at 1. It's the same thing.
I think that's what Ne+Ti is about.

Ni+Ti for example would rather be about taking 0 and 1, and zooming in to 10^-15 using different perspectives just as science uses different technics for different measured scales.

I agree; you said what I meant to say. Describing a phenomenon is a matter of coming up with a framework that accounts for all data (no exceptions). That framework is made up N intersecting spectrums (N dimensional), which can either be discrete (binary) or continuous.

I'm just arguing against half-assing theories. Or people that say "well, you know, phenomenon x just can't be explained -- it's too complex".

For every data set, there are an infinite amount of hypothetical theories that are consistent with that data. Most of the time, it's not too hard to find one. Bayes rule, blah blah, etc. etc.

 

[entropie]

Although I dont know what Evan is talking about I probably can relate to him on this one.

I think the Black and White view could be a thing, strong Ti and Te can fall victim too. I furthermore think, if you have a strong Fe or Fi its also possible to black and white the world, even when the view would be more personalized.

All in all I think it is a rational function expression.

In the world of the Senses or the possibilities I hardly think it is possible to limit or sort out your perception. As in: it is not possible to draw one meaning from this piece of art, which is made of a 1000 different colors or this relationship between the two, which was influenced through a 1000 different occasions.

 

[Mondo]

I don't see the world in black and white in the conventional sense.
I consider myself to be an opportunist and will change my mind if it is reasonable.

The only way I see the world in black and white is that reason is my guide to life and if something conflicts with reason, I will discard it.

 

[LeonardoLestat]

Ti strives for clarity. If something is gray, it just means you need to come up with a better framework.

I hate it when things are gray -- I just take it as a sign that I need to think through it better.

P.S. Fuzziness is different than continuous functions. The opposite of discrete is not fuzzy, it's continuous. I consider spectrums to be black and white (black on one side, white on the other...it's still one dimensional...)

Also, I'm not saying everything is one dimensional. I'm just saying -- if your framework (some amount of intersecting spectrums) cannot accurately describe a phenomenon with no exceptions, it's not a good framework.

It's smart.
It's striking.
It's correct.

 

[EcK]

It's smart.
It's striking.
It's correct.

and it's obvious

 

[LeonardoLestat]

...
That's because ur an infj with a pimped up Ti, not an entp.

Still, a J and not a P. NP vs NJ perhaps.

 

[EcK]

Still, a J and not a P. NP vs NJ perhaps.

You don't even need to go for the J, Ni is sufficient to explain the unwillingness to stay and compute in a world of grey.
Ni is about getting like, the 'nature of things' rather than getting lots and lots and barely related bits into one dynamic whole\focus point\crossroad (Ne)

 

[LeonardoLestat]

Although I dont know what Evan is talking about I probably can relate to him on this one.

I think the Black and White view could be a thing, strong Ti and Te can fall victim too. I furthermore think, if you have a strong Fe or Fi its also possible to black and white the world, even when the view would be more personalized.

All in all I think it is a rational function expression.

In the world of the Senses or the possibilities I hardly think it is possible to limit or sort out your perception. As in: it is not possible to draw one meaning from this piece of art, which is made of a 1000 different colors or this relationship between the two, which was influenced through a 1000 different occasions.

Something is this and not that, this is how the reasoning goes.
Deep down inside I know that everything is a paradox and opposites are actually quite similar, but I cannot perceive in this way, I mean practically.
If the painting is green, it's green and not some other colour.
If you go forward, you don't go backwards.
Personal meanings are hard for me because they are very fuzzy (my own personal meaning with things is weird and chaotic) and I usually just am not able to take it in with my conclusions.

 

[LeonardoLestat]

You don't even need to go for the J, Ni is sufficient to explain the unwillingness to stay and compute in a world of grey.
Ni is about getting like, the 'nature of things' rather than getting lots and lots and barely related bits into one dynamic whole\focus point\crossroad (Ne)

I 'collect' all kinds of bits so I can see the entire picture.
It's like I could be walking around for days and perceive all these things, and after a few days I suddenly put it all together and it's the way things work or the way things happen/have happened.

NJ's create all kinds of systems (I mean, obsessively) to organize and automate organizing of events. I think it's the introversion and thus the complexity of their Ni images that makes em do that. The intuitions are hunches, but not as clear and connected as NP i think (anybody care to elaborate)

 

[LeonardoLestat]

(quote: were ENTPs not ISFJs)not necissarily... it's all just a theory anyways and while we're busy theorizing on MBTI we could discuss shadow functions and shadow selves and that would mean that it was quite possible somehow that we're both ENTPs AND ISFJs...

Gray areas are what I thrive on because they give you a lot more room to think, wonder and come up with new possibilities and arguments- gray is fun, black and white is stifling

You're both. But why did you fill out 'ENTP' instead of 'ISFJ' in the type field?

oh my god. i love talking to NT's

 

[entropie]

Something is this and not that, this is how the reasoning goes.
Deep down inside I know that everything is a paradox and opposites are actually quite similar, but I cannot perceive in this way, I mean practically.
If the painting is green, it's green and not some other colour.
If you go forward, you don't go backwards.
Personal meanings are hard for me because they are very fuzzy (my own personal meaning with things is weird and chaotic) and I usually just am not able to take it in with my conclusions.

And thats perfectly ok. If you could perceive that way, what would be the entp for then ?

 

[Mondo]

You don't even need to go for the J, Ni is sufficient to explain the unwillingness to stay and compute in a world of grey.
Ni is about getting like, the 'nature of things' rather than getting lots and lots and barely related bits into one dynamic whole\focus point\crossroad (Ne)

An Ni will often be too narrow- he or she will take a path that is different than what others take- but he or she follows that path was narrowly as the Si who conforms to all of society's rules.

 

[527468]

I don't know... my life is constantly fuzzy, but I am not going to deny that when it comes to decisions, mine are pretty black and white. I rarely make such decisions, though.

Don't worry. Your Ti will develop soon enough.

 

[substitute]

black/white is so final. it's boring. there's not more to learn, to investigate, to poke at. To expound on. And, hardly most things in this world can be summed up that neatly. The only one that's for certain: life/death. Everything else....

You forgot taxes, and lying

 

[jenocyde]

Don't worry. Your Ti will develop soon enough.

My Ti is not developed? Hahahaaaa... I'm a P, of course I don't like making decisions.

 

[EcK]

My Ti is not developed? Hahahaaaa... I'm a P, of course I don't like making decisions.

yeah intj often tend to confuse impersonal data computation with computer like computation : linear, sequencial, absolute states for data (0\1 vs continuous).

Ne+Ti is a set of simultaneous states computed and rounded up depending on the data vs time positive function when it comes to the accuracy of the final result(s).
It looks for external paterns to apply to a given problem, and then create some sort of metastructure,
It uses associative thinking to capture emerging patterns in the relationships between the items it generates.
Those items are themselves conjured\created via the same associative thinking. Ne+Ti combine those items and apply them to a given problem.

The nature of the process means that the finest the analysis the more items\dynamics will be analysed in terms of volume.

Basically, it's like saying that when looking for a needle in a stack, the smallest the needle(accuracy) the biggest the stack will be.

Ne+Ti can also, of course, focus on the Ti for a more sequencial thinking, but the former process isn't what comes naturally. When the number of analysed Items is low Ne+Ti will look like "Ti". The N interaction really comes into play gradually as the complexity of the problem grows.

Ti+Ne is closer to a sequencial analysis backed up by the associations of the Ne as a source of data, but it doesn't have the exponential feedback loop properties of a very strong Ne combined with Ti.

Primary Ne suggests strong Ti, because the Ti has to make up for the volume of generated information. Secondary Ne will probably tend to show a more notable difference between Ne and Ti that could be demonstrated by an accurate and extensive analysis of the functions.
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