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Thread: Archetypes of the Functions

  1. #81
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    We are basically emulating as opposed to using a native method. To me this emulation would be more integration and less recovery.
    Well, I only used "recovery" to describe integration, based on the premise that this stuff was once suppressed. It's not so literal, and this is just semantic.
    If Si has enough concrete detail it can emulate an Ni event template.
    Yeah. You have a sense of what will haoppen based on whathappened int he past with the same events. The difference is that with Si, it is the concrete event itself, and with it's a concept based on or associated with it.
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  2. #82
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    The summary of the whole concept of the archetypes; particularly the shadows, and the five questions I had compiled as to understand the whole thing in a nutshell. (I sometimes said four, from either forgetting one of them, or combining two):

    1) What exactly triggers them in us
    2) How others' "use" (manifestation) of them affects us
    3) how they affect ourselves, inside
    4) how we use them on others
    5) when the "good" or "bad" sides of them surface

    So it seems

    1) The complexes (personal unconscious) are triggered when a situation invokes a memory of an event associated with the corresponding archetype. Like something that makes us feel inferior, adversarial or cranky; or makes us feel trapped, or feels like evil. We then view this through the perspective of the associated function-attitude.

    2)Others manifestations of these functions may trigger these memories, and affect us in kind. (i.e. according to the archetype, and it's functional perspective). Otherwise, they will be subject to how they fit the ego's goals (positively, no effect, etc).

    3)We normally see the functional perspectives as "irrelevent" (or sometimes even have an aversion to them), and under stress, take them on in a rash, haphazard way. Again, the products of the undifferentiated functions do not have this effect on us when not in conflict with the ego.

    4)We project them onto others, in which we see the other person as the archetype. (This can be either from them truly acting in a way that matches (resonates with) the archetypal complex, or likely more often, just our manufacturing the illusion of such when a situation somehow evokes it). We then react to them in the same way. (adversarial, critical, etc). The goal is to see these archetypes in ourselves rather than project them.

    5)The positive effects surface more either in certain instances of stress when the primary counterparts cannot solve the problem. Otherwise, it is when we "own" the associated complexes and withdraw them, that we gain more conscious access to the functional perspectives. (And of course, there is also the "undifferentiated" normal everyday use of the function).

    So this is how to understand when and when not these "uses" of the "other four" functions occur.
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  3. #83
    Senior Member Array Noon's Avatar
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    What might cause someone to develop the Critical Parent over the Supportive?

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    Supreme High Commander Array Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    What might cause someone to develop the Critical Parent over the Supportive?
    Do you mean develop, as in get better at using, or just us it more frequently? In terms of using, the critical is kinked to the tertiary, as they are both of the same type( perceiving/judging) and direction (i/e).

    The tertiary is often used excessively, leaving the auxillary underused. That's the tertiary temptation, of course, but I think that when it kicks in, it often brings the critical to the fore as well. The tertiary spawns doubt and the critical makes up excuses for the doubt quite often.

    If you mean actually developing the critical into a function that is more useful than the auxillary... then I don't know. I'm not even sure if that is possible. Most of what I know about function theory seems to indicate that a strong auxillary is the keystone to developing the lower functions.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

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    Senior Member Array Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy View Post
    Do you mean develop, as in get better at using, or just us it more frequently? In terms of using, the critical is kinked to the tertiary, as they are both of the same type( perceiving/judging) and direction (i/e).

    The tertiary is often used excessively, leaving the auxillary underused. That's the tertiary temptation, of course, but I think that when it kicks in, it often brings the critical to the fore as well. The tertiary spawns doubt and the critical makes up excuses for the doubt quite often.

    If you mean actually developing the critical into a function that is more useful than the auxillary... then I don't know. I'm not even sure if that is possible. Most of what I know about function theory seems to indicate that a strong auxillary is the keystone to developing the lower functions.
    Thank you, Andy.

    I'm not exactly sure whether it's more useful or just used more frequently.
    I don't think it serves me as well as it serves ISJs... For instance, I don't relate to dependability, responsibility, accountability, repetition or stable routines. But I do relate to and enjoy being past referential, liking to operate from a base of known things, and easily recognizing what I am and am not familiar with. At the same time, I experience Si as also critical, mistake oriented, restrictive, and if in very large quantities, somewhat suffocating? I experience Se as more liberating and enjoyable (I also learn better the Se way), but too much of it and it will seem chaotic and dangerous...cue Si.

    Right now, my most frequently used are Fi and Si.

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    Supreme High Commander Array Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    Thank you, Andy.

    I'm not exactly sure whether it's more useful or just used more frequently.
    I don't think it serves me as well as it serves ISJs... For instance, I don't relate to dependability, responsibility, accountability, repetition or stable routines. But I do relate to and enjoy being past referential, liking to operate from a base of known things, and easily recognizing what I am and am not familiar with. At the same time, I experience Si as also critical, mistake oriented, restrictive, and if in very large quantities, somewhat suffocating? I experience Se as more liberating and enjoyable (I also learn better the Se way), but too much of it and it will seem chaotic and dangerous...cue Si.

    Right now, my most frequently used are Fi and Si.
    Yeah both the tertiary and critical tend to be a bit semifunctional. Sometimes they are useful ways of thinking, other times they just leg you and leave you eating dirt.

    Hmmm... a semifunctional function? What an ugly term of phrase. I hate words, they always get in the way when I'm trying to say something.
    Don't make whine out of sour grapes.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Later discussing this directly with both Lenore Thomson and Beebe, and then researching the concept of the shadow more, it is really sinking in that the way the answers to those questions is summed up, is that the archetypes (especially the shadows) are what we project onto others, and the goal of ego-development is to "own" them, and see them as apart of ourselves.
    Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing this Eric.
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    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    What might cause someone to develop the Critical Parent over the Supportive?
    It's not really about "developing"; especially regarding the shadows. What people call "developing" is really differentiation or integration. And that just means bringing it into conscious more.
    And then, there's:
    I'm not exactly sure whether it's more useful or just used more frequently.
    ...that ol' term "using" functions, which some of us have turned away from, in favor of functions being perspectives.

    What what you might be asking about is simply bringing a perspective more into consciousness.

    So if you're talking about having more manifestations of critical Si, then that is likely not it being "developed" or brought into consciousness; you are just in situations where your critical parent is being triggered, and the feelings reach you by way of Si.

    To bring it into consciousness would be a process of identifying the critical parent complex and its projections onto others, and recognizing it within yourself.

    But then, what you describe might not even be an archetypal manifestation:
    ...enjoy being past referential, liking to operate from a base of known things, and easily recognizing what I am and am not familiar with.
    This does not have to be a necessary Si perspective. (Here is where it is good to see functions as perspectives and not behaviors or skills).

    Any type can engage in those traits fir different reasons. For your type, that sounds simply like the preferred Se. Really, Jung conceived of four functions, S, N, T and F, and the e/i only tells us the preferred source of the stimulation. So an Se type, being just as concrete as an Si type, will have memory and know what he is familiar with. He is just drawn to new emergent experience as well.
    It can even be an Ni perspective, if you're abstracting meaning/patterns from the past data.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Interesting thread. Thanks for sharing this Eric.
    You're welcome. :-)
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    Senior Member Array rowingineden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    7. Deceiving/Trickster - mischievous, wreaks havoc, circumvents obstacles, petulant; is not trustworthy when seen in other people; fools us into thinking something is important to do or pay attention to; compensates for the trust of the puer/puella and insulates against the cruelties of the world.

    8. Devilish/Demon/Daimon - destructive to ourselves and others, undermines, often erupts violently; distorts trust in relationships, promotes chaos

    Positives and Negatives of Each function

    Primary
    1. Dominant: + Leading, - Domineering
    2. Auxiliary: + Supportive, - Overprotective
    3. Tertiary: + Relief, - Unsettling
    4. Inferior: + Aspirational, - Projective

    Shadows
    5. + Backup, - Opposing
    6. + Discovery, - Critical
    7. + Comedic, - Deceiving
    8. + Transformative, - Devilish

    Links for more research:

    What are Archetypes?
    The Jung Lexicon by Jungian analyst, Daryl Sharp, Toronto
    Great Lakes APT : Beebe's 8 Functions
    So:
    Heroine - Fi (Definitely. Fi is my driving force, my flame.)
    Mother - Ne (Very handy. I learn so much more at a much faster rate and so make the right connections because I have Ne going on.)
    Child - Si (Shapes my Fi and Ne, when I am all vulnerable and stuff, Si gets activated. I friggin' hate this function, because my past sucks. I like to not be thinking about the past much.)
    Anima - Te (Te is kinda a jerk. But handy for science, debate, etc.)
    Opposing - Fe (Very useful. Learning this function has helped me get more stuff I want.)
    Witch - Ni (This function took over for most of my childhood, which was a very rough period in my life.)
    Trickster - Se (But... I like Se. It's so much more FUN than Si!)
    Demon - Ti (Is it very bad that I seem to have a lot of Ti going on in this period of my life, then? Nah, it means I'm undergoing transformation, right? Sure.)
    "You get what you're given, it's all how you use it."
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  10. #90
    Senior Member Array KarenParker's Avatar
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    This is hard...
    E - 79% I - 21%
    S - 53% N - 47%
    T - 32% F - 68%
    J - 32% P - 68%

    ESFP


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