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Thread: Archetypes of the Functions

  1. #71
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    The PersonalityPathways description Copula3 gave is almost the thing I searched on this forum.
    Most tests regard the traits as additional (ISFP as I+S+F+P) and I also understood them like this. Correction: I didn't understand them at all - and I wanted to. This has helped me a lot! Those functions are really interesting.
    I still have some questions about them, though...

    What is this energy thing? Please be gentle on a physicist who thinks kinetic or potential energy when she hears 'energy'. What does 'energy' mean in psychological context? What exactly is the difference between, let's say, the Ne and Ni functions? (Since I read about them on the MBTI tutorial, I can't stop thinking Neon and Nickel...)

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    Striving for balance Array Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    OK, here I have attempted to illustrate with each process how the primary attitudes are "shadowed" by their opposites in the shadow complexes, hence giving a better system of understanding and recognizing the shadow roles and their behaviors. The thinking is as discussed above, that there are really only four functions, in four main complexes (hero, parent, child, soul). Those orientations of the functions that are rejected will fall into more negative areas of the four complexes. So they're really just different sides of the same coins; unconscious sides of ego-consciousness, that is.

    Also, helpful to remember in differentiation the different complexes are the distinctions between the "spine" and "arms":

    Spine (Opposing Personality and Demon): Our relation to ourselves; backs up or challenges the hero/anima
    Arm (Witch/Senex and Trickster): our relation to others; used mainly to "tie others down" in some way.

    These are based on Berens and Beebe combined with personal experience as far as I can. (Hence, light on Ne and Si. Little idea of what what those are like as shadows, and don't know many NJ's or SP's!)


    When Se is in Opposing Personality role, the ego function is Si, which internalizes concrete experience as memory. When this is challenged, the focus is shifted to current reality to backup past knowledge. (after all, the past once was present, and is to be learned from in order to know what to expect in the present).

    In a similar fashion, when Se is in witch/senex role, Si is the function the ego uses to parent others. When the parental advice based on past knowledge is rejected, then the parent becomes critical and uses current reality to place blame and find fault.

    When Se is trickster, then Si is puer, and internalized concrete experience is what the ego childishly falls back on to maintain its introverted attitude. If this is challenged, the ego will use current concrete reality to get others off his back by pointing at others ("you do it too" defense {triggered when the ego is intimidated through the puer by memory-based fear of punishment}). "wanting to have its own way": wanting to see things for myself, and having concrete evidence for things such as spirituality.

    Se as demon: The person aspires to being more attentive to internal sensations. External sensations may undermine this.

    Si as Opposing Personality: The person is focused primarily on the present. The past is used as a reference to how it links to the present, which they will stubbornly cling to.

    Si as witch/senex: the person parents others by noticing current concrete data. If this is ignored, they will turn to past concrete data to criticize things by.

    Si as trickster: Sensory pleasure is a source of childlike relief. If this is threatened, they will reference past esperiences to get the person off their back.

    Si as demon: the person, immersed in the world of Ni, ultimately wants some connection to the concrete world, usually the present. Under stress, they may turn from present to past reality.

    Ne as Opposing Personality: The person usually has "knowings" based on internal abstract perceptions. If this is challenged, they will turn towards external stimuli to back up their perception.

    Ne as witch/senex: The person parents with foresight and following their visions. If this is spurned, they will turn to an external sense of possibilities to criticize with.

    Ne as trickster: The person finds relief in using their imagination to perceive the future. If this is intimidated, they would try to tie others down with multiple external interpretations.

    Ne as demon: They aspire to having a sense of the future. When stressed, it can turn into messed up interpretations.

    Ni as Opposing backs up Ne as hero. The ego cherishes multiple opportunities of external obects being open. If they are shut out, then the person will "lock on" to an internal negative perception of what will happen.

    Ni as senex/witch uses its perceptions to criticize or cast blame, with a cynical outlook on the future. They normally "parent" others with external-based multiple possibilities, but when these seem to be shut out by circumstances (or if they cannot obtain the meaning behind something), they will generate a specific perception internally, and 'parent' others in a negative fashion with this.

    Ni as trickster shadows Ne as child. Imaginativeness using multiple possibilities is a playful, childlike endeavor. If this is intimidated, the person will then try to bind the other person with negative premonitions of what will happen (such as a fight occurring. Like because the person really prefers Si-- and "parents" with it, someone may see them as unimaginitive. This will be striking at a vulnerable area, resulting in a possible angry reaction).

    Ni as demon: shadows Ne as anima. The person really has a typical aversion to too much abstraction (favoring internal concrete remembrance), but does aspire to seeing the meanings behind things. Under stress, this will become very negative forecasting "with detailed certainty" (Berens).

    Te as Opposing Personality will back up the ego's internal model of how things should be, and thus when the principles are violated, it will be "stubborn" about how things are organized.

    Te as witch/Senex will back up parental Ti which seeks to instruct others with its models. So when people do not follow the principles, it will turn to the external order of things to criticize and find fault.

    Te as trickster will shadow the Child, which delights in models and frameworks. If someone intimidates this, it will turn to external principles to strip down the offender.

    Te as demon: Very Feeling driven person, and while they have an aspiration to Ti, when things are out of order, they will overcompensate with a focus on efficient order of things.

    Ti as Opposing Personality: The person's hero is extraverted Thinking, which orders the world for efficiency. When this is challenged, they will turn inward to universal principles to stubbornly support their external focus.

    Ti as witch/senex: The person parents others with rules of external efficiency. When this is not adhered to, then they begin parenting critically with the universal frameworks and principles of the world that support the external rules.

    Ti as trickster: External efficiency is looked up to with childlike innocense. The person will turn to the underlying principles behind it as a last resort if intimidated.

    Ti as demon: The person has a deep down desire to be organized and systematic. If this is intimidated with too much logic, they then seek to rip to shreds the models and frameworks, proving them inconsistent.

    Fe as Opposing Personality: The person is driven by personal and universal values. If these are challenged, they will appeal to external values to defend the ego.

    Fe as critical parent is supporting Fi as good parent. ExFP's parent others with personal or universal values. If a group or people in a group are violating these, then the person will begin using external values to parent the people in a critical fashion (including blaming).

    Fe as trickster: The person finds relief through universal/personal values. External values are appealed to (often in an overgeneralized fashion) when motivating someone to do what's important, particularly if the person's bahavior is affecting them in some way.

    Fe as demon: The person's directive heroic external logic is ultimately driven by a deep sense of what's personally important. If this is violated, then they will use external values to put others down, or claim to be unfairly treated.

    Fi as Opposing Personality: The person is driven to accommodate others, but since this can easily be taken advantage of, when stressed, (or more frequently; from coming from a background of abuse), they will turn the value system inward and erect a hard stiff wall of what is important and desired to themselves personally.

    Fi as critical parent: The person parents others with external values. If this is ignored, a negative internal judgment system will erupt to sharply put down the offender.

    Fi as trickster: Social acceptance will be a vulnerable spot for them. If this is intimidated, they will use universal values to get others off their backs.

    Fi as demon: Fe as anima will be very dependent on others for acceptance. If others constantly reject the person, this will trigger a very negative, destructive "universal" sense of being no good as a person, which may also cause backlashes against others. Values will be used as a "club" to condemn offenders or their systems. The person will also vehemently resist any charge of violation of Fe or Fi values. They may be put off by any self-righteous moralizing in others (which pricks their conscience in a provocative way), and try to outo or take them down.
    Interesting. This was very helpful.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  3. #73
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Thank you.

    Here's a useful quote from the theorists I just found that points out something I have been stressing regarding the function/archetype order:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hunziker and Leona Haas

    Actually, the shadow encompasses all processes that are primarily unconscious in an individual. Which processes these are will depend on that person'a type development and can even include all eight in a very young child. Not also, that the normal hierarchy of preference for processes five through eight has not yet been empirically established, and in practice is likely to vary from person to person. Beebe cautions us not to assume too much on the basis of his numbering, which in many ways is simply for convenience in identifying the various positions. He simply puts it forth as a tool that he has found useful and informative and which at least for the first four functions seems to refleact the order of conscious cultivation of the functions that he has observed. The numbers for the shadow functions are identified merely to mirror the ordering of the first four.
    (Building Blocks of Personality Type; Glossary: "Shadow", p. 215: "Shadow", p. 215)
    Also, here's a good analogy I thought of for the four "blocks" consisting of pairs of functions in Beebe's order:

    1/2: ? diamonds: the ego's most cherished goals
    3/4: ? hearts: the vulnerable, innocent area
    5/6: ? spades (sharp weapon)
    7/8: ? clubs (blunt weapon)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  4. #74
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    The last installment focused on the how the four shadows parallel their primary counterparts. This one now wll look at all eight in terms of "projection", which is what they awere originally concerned with in their pure Jungian form; and sheds thre most light on how exactly they work. (Edited down from here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1193936 Now I'm seeing that even that blog section can only e seen by logged in viewers).

    When I first began seeing discussions of the archetypes and intertype cognitive dynamics around them I outlined four questions I sought to answer in coming to a full understanding of the whole theory:

    1) What exactly triggers them in us
    2) How others "use" of them affects us
    3) how they affect ourselves, inside
    4) when the "good" or "bad" sides of them surface

    Understanding the functions as perspectives, and the roles of the "spines" and "arms" and the "shadow" being that aspect of four primary archetypes and perspectives that is suppressed into unconsciousness, was the first step to understanding.
    Later discussing this directly with both Lenore Thomson and Beebe, and then researching the concept of the shadow more, it is really sinking in that the way the answers to those questions is summed up, is that the archetypes (especially the shadows) are what we project onto others, and the goal of ego-development is to "own" them, and see them as apart of ourselves.
    Hence, the larger self, which encompasses both the ego consciousness, and the personal and collective unconscious is said to constantly be trying to "get our attention" through means such as conflicts and reactions, as well as dreams.
    This is because the ego thinks it's the center of the psyche, when the larger Self really is.

    When we withdraw a complex, instead of projecting it at others, we then become more receptive to stimulation from the function that has become embedded in the complex's archetype. We can then experience the positive side of the perspective more.

    This is what has somewhat misguidedly become shorthanded as "developing the functions". That again assumes the functions are "skills" we "use". But you're not really developing functions; you're expanding consciousness and recovering (integrating) suppressed perspectives, as that again is what the function attitudes are.
    The ultimate goal is called "individuation". While this would yield a more balanced perspective in living, it is really not simply being "strong" in "all eight functions".

    Really, self-growth is what all of this stuff is really, ultimately all about!

    So to start, here are some points to remember to help understand the concepts:

    Functions (S, N, T, F) or "function attitudes" (Xe, Xi), are perspectives; not behaviors or skills-sets.

    In order to understand the archetypes, we first should know something about Jung's division of the psyche or "larger Self".

    The ego is the conscious part, where our type preference lies.
    The personal unconscious is the individual (personal) parts of our life experience which have fallen into unconsciousness. The easiest exmple of this is simply things we've forgotten. It's still buried in the memory somewhere; we just can no longer bring it up consciously. It may come up on its own through dreams, déja-vu's, sudden flashes of memory under stress, etc.
    The collective unconscious is the unconscious stuff programmed into all of us; reflecting human experience as a whole. It comes through in our inherited images of male and female, good and evil, love and power, that are represented in all cultures. This likely stems from the limbic area of the brain.

    So with that now; archetypes lie in the collective unconscious. Each one is "a way of organizing human experience that gives it collective meaning". (Beebe).
    When we have experiences that fit into and "fill" them, they then enter the personal unconscious, and become complexes. The archetype is at the core of the complex.

    So one such human experience involves heroically solving a problem. That is one archetype, and the one that becomes associated with our ego's dominant operation. Another experience is supporting others. Another one is looking up to others to support us. And another is finfing completeness. Each other these in turn have negative sides that are further suppressed into unconsciousness, and altogether form the eight "roles" discussed by those of us following John Beebe's model.

    Undifferentiated functions remain in the unconscious, and the eight specific ego-development archetypes form "shells" so to speak, around them.

    The ego can still "reach into the shell" and access these functions apart from the archetype. Their products are capable of reaching consciousness, as long as it is linked to the perspective of the dominant standpoint.
    So if I'm enthusiastic and emotional about some logical framework I've figured out, I'm not "using Fi", and therefore might actually "prefer" it. The perspective is Ti, and the positive, emotive valuation that has become associated with "Fi" is a natural (or "limbic") reaction to the ego's goals being realized. An Fi perspective would basically be valuation for its own sake; which usually ends up aimed at more personal issues such as ethics or arts.
    (A lof of "NxP Seekers" here (and those trying to "help" them with their type) would be greatly helped by realizing this).

    So we have these eight complexes; at the core of each is an archetype, inside of which is a function attitude that becomes the main perspective of that complex.

    Together, these are called "function-attitude complexes", or "Archetypal Complexes Carrying the Eight Functions".
    "Thus we develop an inferiority complex around the inferior function, a superiority complex around the superior function, a 'best auxiliary' complex (the caretaker) around the auxiliary function, and an 'eternal child' complex around the tertiary function." (Beebe)

    The eight-function model is basically a diagram of the several complexes that are normally activated when an ego-identity is established. It isn't telling you how the functions are going to operate when they're "used." It's telling you how the complexes are going to operate when they're influencing one's behavior. (Lenore)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  5. #75
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    So here now are the most prominent complexes:

    HERO (dominant)

    Since this is the ego's "operating charter", we probably don't often project it at others. We "own" it right off the bat. It is "us", at least in our conscious self-image.
    I imagine it's when we're really young, and we look up to those who manifest the perspective that will become dominant in our own consciousness.

    GOOD PARENT (auxiliary)

    You would think we likewise don't project this much, since we see it as just as integral to our type as the dominant. But according to Lenore, since we often jump straight to the tertiary defense, we apparently do not always completely own the complex.
    She speaks of people withdrawing the parent projections, in which we then open ourselves to more information from the auxiliary function, gaining "a strong motivation to teach and mentor others", and sometimes going to the opposite extreme of "preaching the auxiliary". The person now rigorously "parents" others with their perspective, including their method of owning the complex.

    I imagine projecting the parent would mean you would see others as parent figures you want to help you with the perspective of the function in that position. Running to the tertiary, we're playing a role of "child" (that function's archetypal shell) anyway.

    But being in a heavy SJ environment, I have probably not had many people I could project this onto, so I believe I owned it pretty early, making my Ne very strong (as reflected by the cognitive process test), to the point of seeming to be possibly my dominant.

    PUER ("eternal child", tertiary)

    Since this would be the function our egos run to to maintain the dominant attitude, we probably don't project this associated complex onto others. The ego naturally owns it quickly.

    Projection would be seeing others as "children".
    The tertiary thus "inflates" itself, aiming to appear full of "wisdom and maturity" and be equal to the dominant or auxiliary of others. Yet then it deflates itself, and I become like a child wanting to be taken and led into the innocent past through nostalgic interests.

    Actually, all conscious complexes tend to inflate themselves. It's actually the ego that is doing the inflating, as it seeks to be the center of the psyche (in place of the Self). So since the tertiary is the ego's first line of defense of the dominant perspective, it seems to be the one that is seen "inflating" the most.


    Now, we enter the realm of the less conscious complexes; the ones that do get heavily projected onto others, and need to be owned.

    When we project the encompassing complexes onto people, they seem to fit those roles, generally involving the function-attitude in that position in some way, and we react oppositionally in kind with that function. Or, they might genuinely be fitting the role in their own behavior.
    To own the complex instead of projecting it at others, we must see ourselves as playing those roles; our own worst enemies.
    This is hard, because these parts of us are what we have shut out of our consciousness.


    ANIMA (inferior, aspirational)
    What it is about, and which function it encases:

    Shaped largely by the parent of the opposite sex, projected onto those we fall in love with, and encases the inferior function.

    ISxJ's might feel inferior in new possibilities.
    INxJ's might feel inferior with current sensory experience.
    IxTP's might feel inferior in social settings.
    IxFP's might feel inferior regarding logical organization.
    ESxP's might feel inferior (spaced out) by abstract frameworks such as archetypes and symbolism.
    ENxP's might feel inferior when it comes to learned order
    ExTJ's might feel inferior in personal ethics.
    ExFJ's might feel inferior regarding logical understanding.

    How we project it onto others:

    ISxJ's Cling to dominant perspective. Criticize NP's as irresponsible
    INxJ's Cling to dominant perspective. Probably see SP's as inferior
    IxTP's Put on a cool, aloof mask (associated with dominant perspective), and openly complain about FJ types.
    IxFP's Criticize other's organization
    ESxP's Criticize this stuff as irrelevent.
    ENxP's Dismissed learned methods as irrelevant
    ExTJ's Become defensive and develop a martyrdom complex where it's everyone else's ethics are bad.
    ExFJ's Criticize others as illogical.

    In each case, there's a deep down inside longing for what they are brushing off, that they might realize if they look for it. Espsecially in mid-life, when "individuation takes us inward" (Lenore)

    Since in the typical Beebe order where the eight are evenly divided four and four, the inferior usually falls on the "ego-syntonic" side, where the next four are "ego-dystonic" and negative. So Berens includes it with the first three as generally positive, having a negative side, rather than generally negative, having positive side.
    So the "negative" side of this "aspirational" function she calls "projective"; and often the first aspect of it experienced. We "project our fears, shoulds and negativities onto others". In reality, it is all the shadows or unconscious complexes that get projected onto others. Of course, this harmonized with standard four-process theory, where the inferior IS considered to be the whole "shadow".

    So that is another aspect of the inferior projection besides just the opposite gender stuff. (Though that does seem to be connected with some sort of female feeling).

    How to own it:
    we see others as completing us (i.e. we're inferior), but we need to see this completeness in ourselves. (Not sure how this works for the "contrasexual" aspect of it).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Now, to "the shadow", proper.
    "The Shadow" was originally (to Jung) a single archetype that gets projected onto our enemies. In this model, it is of course divided into four distinct roles, shadowing the primary archetypes. (In the older model, it is just the inferior itself. So in this model, the inferior or anima/animus is often called "the bridge" to the unconscious).

    OPPOSING PERSONALITY COMPLEX
    What it is about, and which function it encases:

    Stubborn about things in the associated perspective. It's defending the dominant perspective in its opposite orientation.
    Also usually contrasexual, like the anima/animus; it seems to be what we "lust" after in the opposite sex. While the anima is "madonna" or the "nice guy" we "love" in the opposite sex, this complex is the "whore" or "bad boy". (My own observation).

    ISxJ's Stubborn about going with the flow of a single impulse or having an accurate read on the current situation.
    INxJ's Stubborn about responding to emerging information
    IxTP's Stubborn about the way things are organized
    IxFP's stubborn about how others affect them
    ESxP's stubborn about their perceptions of how things once were
    ENxP's stubborn about their perceptions of how the future will be
    ExTJ's stubborn about models and principles and robotically following them
    ExFJ's stubborn about personal values

    How we project it onto others:

    ISxJ's Think that living in the moment is irresponsible. (However, some who do it are sexy).
    INxJ's Probably think that multiple possibilities are absurd. The patterns point to one right conclusion.
    IxTP's Think that agreed upon logical rules are stupid and a waste of time. Spunky Te types might be sexy
    IxFP's Think that agreed upon ethics do not get to the real needs of people; affect them negatively, etc.
    ESxP's Memorized rules and such are stupid and limiting of freedom.
    ENxP's Taking only one possibility is stupid and limiting.
    ExTJ's Breaking things down into trivial detail is stupid, inefficient and a waste of time
    ExFJ's Tailoring everything to individual personal needs is too much trouble

    How to own it:

    We're making others into "opposing personalities" ("negative heroes" or "villains"), but we're really our own villain.

    Ji/Pe types have chosen P and suppressed J. And Je/Pi types have chosen J and suppressed P. Hence, P's might not really make many decisions externally, but instead just try to get by under other people's order, with which we can easily find fault, but not offer much of a better solution ourselves.

    If we were to exercise (own) more of a J attitude (as represented by our dominant function's opposite orientation), we would be more proactive in the outer world and thus able to attain better positions of control and not feel so at the mercy of others. We would then be able to withdraw some of the villification or criticism we direct at those in power.
    Likewise, if J's would likewise take on more of a [suppressed] P attitude, they would withdraw a lot of their blame on others for not being organized enough.


    SENEX ("critical parent, witch")
    What it is about, and which function it encases:

    "critical and disgruntled" (Berens) about the associated perception or judgment perspective. "Parent" others negatively in a limiting, authoritarian fashion.

    ISxP's Past rememberances.
    INxP's perceived significance of life events (and what they appear to lead to).
    IxTJ's logical principles
    IxFJ's Personal ethics
    ESxJ's Current sensory experience.
    ENxJ's Multiple possibilities.

    How we project it onto others.

    ISxP's Avoid past rememberances, except to blame, and will make them critical if others dwell too much
    INxP's Interpret everything in terms of a "big picture" in which the worst will happen
    IxTJ's Will often angrily hit others with logical principles.
    IxFJ's Can angrily hit others with personal or universal ethics.
    ESxJ's Very critical about the way things look, which they easily spot to find fault with (I call them "hawks")
    ENxJ's Might attack people for exploring multiple possibilities.
    ExTP's Will fight, compete and one-up others over the way things are ordered.
    ExFP's will authoritatively chastize those perceived as disrupting social harmony (and end up disrupting it themselves), and will reference standards imposed upon themselves.

    How to own it:

    We see others as shaming, blaming "critical parents", setting limits on us in an authoritarian (Hunziker) fashion (and then react in kind), but we're really our own critical parent, and blaming others for this.


    TRICKSTER (bad child, clown)
    What it is about, and which function it encases:

    Deceiving, double-binding, trapping others

    ISxP's Might feel 'double-bound' by multiple possibilities
    INxP's Might feel 'double-bound' by current reality (physical things or facts), and then it seems to become the perfect vehicle to try to turn the tables on others with, or to be silly with.
    IxTJ's Might feel 'double-bound' by social values, and use them to trap others
    IxFJ's Might feel 'double-bound' by logical order, and make mistakes trying to implement it themselves
    ESxJ's Might feel 'double-bound' by abstract frameworks, and use them to trap others into confirming their worst fears
    ENxJ's Might feel 'double-bound' by past memorances, and use them to trap others
    ExTP's Might feel 'double-bound' by personal values, and use them to trap others
    ExFP's Might feel 'double-bound' by logical principles and use them to trap others

    How we project it onto others:

    ISxP's See people tossing out multiple possibilities as bad children or clowns.
    INxP's People performing rigorous stunts are clowns; people telling "the facts" seem like "bullies"
    IxTJ's might criticize others' social behavior to scare them by saying they are bringing rejection on themselves
    IxFJ's see people organizing things logically as "bad children"
    ESxJ's see abstract frameworks as silly, yet unconsciously use them themselves under stress
    ENxJ's People who dwell on the past (instead of moving on) are "puerile", and yet they might distort it to get them off their back
    ExTP's see opponent's passion in a dispute and try to outdo it themselves in a childish fashion.
    ExFP's All this archetype stuff ("puers trigger witches", etc. logical frameworks) is just excuses for bad behavior (I actually had someone say this to me!)

    How to own it:

    We see others as a bad child, but we're being a bad child.


    DEMONIC PERSONALITY COMPLEX
    What it is about, and which function it encases:

    The most rejected area of consciousness. The opposite function of the dominant perspective orientation.

    ISxJ's deep abstract meaning is an area of the unknown and runs totally counter to the concrete structure needed
    INxJ's The past is highly irrelevent, and likely haunting
    IxTP's Ethical congruence and conscience might be a nagging, guilt-provoking issue we wish could go away.
    IxFP's Logical analysis totally depersonalizes life
    ESxP's Interpretations of current reality are highly irrelevent
    ENxP's "may get caught up in a binge of being in the physical moment; excessively seeking stimulation or following the urge to sleep or do nothing" (Berens)
    ExTJ's Social harmony might be manipulated for personal goals, rather than shaping one's own behavior
    ExFJ's Logical order is a necessary evil done in a huff to accomplish goal of social harmony

    How we project it onto others:

    ISxJ's see abstract frameworks as crazy, yet use them under stress in an overblown fashion ("dire predictions with detailed certainty")
    INxJ's "When really stressed, they may waste time reviewing the impact of the past."(Berens) (Likely aimed at someone else in a conflict)
    IxTP's Might become very envious and resentful at people seen as morally self-contented, and want nothing more than to upseat and expose them. They come across as evil hypocrites wearing a "good guy" mask.
    then end up coming off as self-righteous themselves in trying to outdo these others.
    Also, self-destructive in expending time and energy passionately engaging in all-so-"important" personal causes against them.
    IxFP's Logical analysis is cold and evil, and they'll use it to demolish someone else's analysis
    ESxP's "over-read 'between the lines', often misinterpreting the meaning of someone's actions and attributing negative intentions where there are none" (Berens)
    ENxP's "zero in on isolated details, hastily acting on them in a chaotic disjointed way" (Berens) Likely in conflict against someone else.
    ExTJ's Others are socially destructive, and are out to get me; I'm doing SO much for others, and not appreciated
    ExFJ's Others' disorder is making me crazy; frenzied rush to clean and fix everything or order the other person

    How to own it:

    we see others as "devils" in these areas, but we really are
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    Active Member Array Poki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    This is what has somewhat misguidedly become shorthanded as "developing the functions". That again assumes the functions are "skills" we "use". But you're not really developing functions; you're expanding consciousness and recovering (integrating) suppressed perspectives, as that again is what the function attitudes are.
    The ultimate goal is called "individuation". While this would yield a more balanced perspective in living, it is really not simply being "strong" in "all eight functions".

    Really, self-growth is what all of this stuff is really, ultimately all about!
    Not pulling this out of the context of the whole, but that post was to long to quote all and just highlight a single portion. We have "skills" we "use". Our ego can see a purpose to this skill and can reach into our unconcious to utilize it, but it is still under control of our ego. It becomes a tool, but we havnt fully brought it into us(integrating),its not recovering supressed perspectives, but opening the door to supressed perspectives. The thing is that until we actually recognize it it will stay in this limbo state between integration and supression. We havnt really accepted it, but we use it and we learn to rationalize the use of this. We have even rationalized this process in the phrase "fake it till you make it". The hardest part is to not get stuck in this limbo and proceed through life faking it, the goal is to make it and to make it is an internal accomplishment, not an external goal.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  8. #78
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poki View Post
    We have "skills" we "use". Our ego can see a purpose to this skill and can reach into our unconcious to utilize it, but it is still under control of our ego.
    Well, I didn't say we didn't use skills; it's just that the functions themselves are not best understood as skills. Skills might be the result of functions, but the function itself is just the taking in of information or making a decision with it. How well you do that is determined by how well you are in tune with the perspective represented by the function.
    It becomes a tool, but we havnt fully brought it into us(integrating),its not recovering supressed perspectives, but opening the door to supressed perspectives. The thing is that until we actually recognize it it will stay in this limbo state between integration and supression. We havnt really accepted it, but we use it and we learn to rationalize the use of this. We have even rationalized this process in the phrase "fake it till you make it". The hardest part is to not get stuck in this limbo and proceed through life faking it, the goal is to make it and to make it is an internal accomplishment, not an external goal.
    But by "recovering", I'm speaking only hypothetically of once we have brought it into us.
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    I saw this, I don't know why I didn't answer. Must have started thinking ian answer out, and kept forgetting or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    The PersonalityPathways description Copula3 gave is almost the thing I searched on this forum.
    Most tests regard the traits as additional (ISFP as I+S+F+P) and I also understood them like this. Correction: I didn't understand them at all - and I wanted to. This has helped me a lot! Those functions are really interesting.
    I still have some questions about them, though...
    And while adding I + S + F + P seems totally different than looking at it as Fi + Se; they do add up to the same thing.
    The MBTI questions basically measure, first, I or E. Then, the two preferred functions, one perception, and one judgment. Then, it measures general "J" vs "P" behaviors, and from there is able to put together the type code.

    If you score high on Judging, then it must be the judgment function you scored highest on that is "extraverted". The perceiving function must therefore also be introverted. The reverse for scoring high on "perception". The one whose orientation matches the first letter (I/E) must then be your dominant, and the other, the auxiliary.

    Which ever one is extraverted will color the general "J" vs "P" behavior. Hence, that can be treated as a standalone dichotomy.

    What is this energy thing? Please be gentle on a physicist who thinks kinetic or potential energy when she hears 'energy'. What does 'energy' mean in psychological context?
    Energy is simply what we normally understand as emotional energy. Like when you feel worn out by paying attention to something you don't want to, and you say you don't have the "energy" for that.
    What exactly is the difference between, let's say, the Ne and Ni functions? (Since I read about them on the MBTI tutorial, I can't stop thinking Neon and Nickel...)
    I have discussed that in the "Ne vs Ni" thread, and another Ni thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, I didn't say we didn't use skills; it's just that the functions themselves are not best understood as skills. Skills might be the result of functions, but thwe function itself is just the taking in of information or making a decision with it. How well you do that is determined by how well you are in tune with the perspective represented by the function. But by "recovering", I'm speaking only hypothetically of once we have brought it into us.
    I agree. I dont think that skills tie directly into functions. Its more about the use of functions which is a slightly different take on what you are saying. I can use the functions I have present to produce a result to a certain level. Therfore I am skilled at producing this result. How well you are in tune with the correct function can determine how much energy is exhausted performing certain skills or producing certain results. We are basically emulating as opposed to using a native method. To me this emulation would be more integration and less recovery.

    If Si has enough concrete detail it can emulate an Ni event template.

    This event is like the opposite of being born where we have no control of our bladder and have to wear a diaper yet we have full access to our functions. As we begin to control our bladder we also begin to supress our functions. As we age we lose control of our bladder and end up back in daipers as we gain back control of our functions. So if we stopped learning how to control our bladder we wouldnt have to worry about supressing our functions
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

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