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Thread: Archetypes of the Functions

  1. #41
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i find that to be a misleading way of thinking about Si. introverted sensing can directly take in information from the environment as long as that information is relevant to the internal standard
    But in that case, those internal standards would be the data "taken in through the senses", and internalized, and then brought up through memory. Yes, we can look at the whole process, as starting by taking in new information, but the internal standard the relevance the data is measured by is the gist of what Si is about. That's why it's "introverted" in the first place.
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  2. #42
    Occasional Member Array Evan's Avatar
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    all i'm saying is you shouldn't think of Si as memory. Se has the same (edit: similar) memory capacities.

    Se memory is still data that's taken in and processed, so it's "internal". but that's not what introversion means.

  3. #43
    The Black Knight Array Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Yeah, I think the ESTJ is supposedly Te.
    Sorry, guys. Really dropped the ball on that one. *shakes head*

    You got the gist anyway in spite of my idiocy!
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    hyggelig Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    i find that to be a misleading way of thinking about Si. introverted sensing can directly take in information from the environment as long as that information is relevant to the internal standard (current thought processes/unconscious tendencies).

    and extroverted sensing can remember past sensory data as long as that data is relevant to the current external standard (current external situation).

    sensing is just sensing. introversion and extroversion just refer to the weighting. Se goes along with the environment, essentially clearing the cache each time a new piece comes in -- each new piece of sensory data is given equal weight. Si pays more or less attention to new data depending on the internal relevance of that data.
    Okay... so Si people connect their sensory input to their memories? Maybe... while Se people would connect their experiences to a potential future, or at least to the present, Si people tend to connect what they sense to the past? That might make sense, because events always remind me of things, and often in order to complete something successfully I need to see an example of it (so I can connect my present day project to something in the past, perhaps?).
    and it's nice enough to
    make a man
    weep, but I don't
    weep, do
    you?

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  5. #45
    hyggelig Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Sorry, guys. Really dropped the ball on that one. *shakes head*

    You got the gist anyway in spite of my idiocy!
    No, that's not idiocy! If it makes you feel any better, I couldn't tell you what your functions are if my life depended on it! (except that I think you're Se... but only because you mentioned it earlier.)
    and it's nice enough to
    make a man
    weep, but I don't
    weep, do
    you?

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw or gryffindor (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #46
    Occasional Member Array Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Okay... so Si people connect their sensory input to their memories? Maybe... while Se people would connect their experiences to a potential future, or at least to the present, Si people tend to connect what they sense to the past? That might make sense, because events always remind me of things, and often in order to complete something successfully I need to see an example of it (so I can connect my present day project to something in the past, perhaps?).
    no no it has nothing to do (directly at least) with past or present or future.

    Se memory is inspired directly by environmental factors, Si memory is inspired by environmental factors FILTERED THROUGH the internal standard. Si takes one more step than Se -- it filters out data that isn't important to the user right then (and looks more deeply at sensory data that is important). but they both work in the present moment. and they both have memories of the past.

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    For some time now, I've been intrigued and fascinated (some might call it "obsessed") by John Beebe's ideas relating the eight function-attitudes to specific archetypes. Since Ni is supposed to be the function which is best suited to recognising archetypes in action, I set myself the task of looking for manifestations of the archetypes in myself, to see if my self-experience matches Beebe's theory.

    Lately, I have had a number of significant dreams involving archetypal characters which seem to match those described by Beebe. I have always been a fan of Marvel comics and my dreams relect this as they are often populated by superheroes. Alternatively, a heroic fantasy setting is common. Here are my speculations on the identities of my personal archetypes (associated type functions in brackets):

    Hero (Ni): A strong male figure with superpowers or magical abilities (including flight, invisibility, force fields and energy blasts) who steps in to save the day. Usually represented by myself in a dream, but sometimes can be a third party.

    Parent (Fe): Usually, my actual parents. Alternatively, a wise male mentor figure, such as Professor X of the X-Men or Gandalf from LOTR. Can be somewhat stern and aloof, but at other times will save me from disaster.

    Child (Ti): A young boy, cocky and streetwise, may look like an urchin. He will initiate some type of bantering dialogue with me. He is charming and witty, but I get the sense that he is not to be fully trusted, or may attempt to steal something from me. However, if I decide to trust him, he may lead me along a secret path to treasure.

    Anima (Se) A beautiful female with flowing hair. She also tends to appear as a superhero with the power to control the elements, often assisting me in the dream. On a number of occasions, she has manifested as the Marvel superhero "Scarlet Witch".

    Opposing personality (Ne) Can be male or female, usually charismatic and powerful. Will publicly denounce me in a very nasty way. May rouse an army of supporters to rise up against me; this can lead to open warfare on a grand scale.

    Witch (Fi) A woman who used to be my best friend, but who became increasingly unstable and manipulative. Escaping her clutches was one of the hardest things I've ever done; now she haunts my dreams!

    Trickster (Te) No idea as yet.

    Demon (Si) A dark male figure, only seen in silhouette. He lurks on the edge of a scene and is both sinister and seductive at the same time. He clearly is linked to my own Shadow side. At other times a monster of some kind, actively trying to destroy me. If I am in Hero mode, we may engage in an epic, superhero-type battle which commonly ends in a stalemate.
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  8. #48
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    no no it has nothing to do (directly at least) with past or present or future.

    Se memory is inspired directly by environmental factors, Si memory is inspired by environmental factors FILTERED THROUGH the internal standard. Si takes one more step than Se -- it filters out data that isn't important to the user right then (and looks more deeply at sensory data that is important). but they both work in the present moment. and they both have memories of the past.
    Still, common descriptions, from the theorists themselves, do associate Si with the past. Again, that internal standard was based on input from the past. Here's a good description list of the functions:

    My MBTI Personality Type - Understanding MBTI Type Dynamics - The Eight Function-Attitudes (myersbriggs.org)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  9. #49
    Occasional Member Array Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Still, common descriptions, from the theorists themselves, do associate Si with the past. Again, that internal standard was based on input from the past. Here's a good description list of the functions:

    My MBTI Personality Type - Understanding MBTI Type Dynamics - The Eight Function-Attitudes (myersbriggs.org)
    i dunno, i guess i reject most of what these theorists say.

    Si vs. Se can be thought of as depth of sensing vs. breadth of sensing. past only indirectly comes into play, although it is a factor.

    (same thing with Ni and Ne -- depth of ideas vs breadth of ideas)

  10. #50
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    Default The Faces Model

    PersonalityPathways has a very insightful description of the Types: Type Faces and Archetypes.

    Robert Louis Stevenson helped nudge the duality of our nature in the Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde. The dramatic portrayal of Joanne Woodward of the Three Faces of Eve is another example as is the pejorative declaration that "so and so" is "two-faced." The penchant of conventional psychology to identify personality traits has helped to "abnormalize" our dual nature. Having more than one "personality" is considered a disorder: Multiple Personality Disorder. At the sub-clinical level, while not considered clinically significant, showing "two different faces" is not healthy. Being "two-faced" is considered not a good thing to be!

    Yet, Having Two Faces is Normal! This assertion stems from C.G.Jung's discovery that all people have both an extraverted and introverted nature. Yet, again, the influence of trait psychology has clouded this distinction by converting the preferences into a scale, with I at one extreme and E at the other, and a midpoint in between. So it has been seductively easy to fall into the trap of classifying people along this scale depending on which side of the midpoint a person fell. Even serious students of psychological type and admirers of Isabel Myers are guilty of talking about Introverts and Extroverts -- as if Introverts have no extraverted nature and Extraverts have no introverted nature. In commenting on this modern day distortion of his mother's work at a conference in the Spring of 2000, Peter Myers was quoted as saying: "There are no extraverts. There are 8 functions." He further explained that his mother was forced to linearize MBTI type preferences in scale form because all the stats at that time applied to traits. The 8 functions Peter Myers' referenced are: the i (introverted) and e (extraverted) expressions of the 4 Jungian mental functions of S (sensing), N (intuition), T (thinking), and F (feeling). Thus Se is extraverted sensing and Si is introverted sensing.

    The Type Letters Are Not Additive. The 4 MBTI type letters are too often misconstrued as the component parts of a whole as in INTJ=I+N+T+J. Wherein in reality INTJ is the code designation for a distinct pattern of how 8 functions interact and result in a "whole type." The longhand version of this code would write out the order of the 8 functions from most dominant and conscious to most inferior and unconscious. Thus INTJ refers to the following pattern of mental functions: Ni, Te, Fi, Se, Ne, Ti, Fe, and Si. Expressed in this way, the wholeness of type, in encompassing all the functions and attitudes is more evident.

    True Type is Hidden. Because of the influence of "trait" psychology on how we think about personality, it is easy for the type practitioner to lose sight of the fact that Jung's theory of types is not based on observable traits of behavior. When we talk about Type, we are actually talking about something that is hidden beneath the collection of traits and behaviors we think about when using the term personality. A person's "Type" may be something we can infer from traits and behaviors, yet we cannot directly observe it. If we examine the root of the word personality ("persona") we discover it means "mask." So the origin of the term suggests the early philosopher-psychologists believed the real self was hidden beneath the mask of personality. When we observe in others consistent patterns of behavior, we are seeing, not type itself, but the influence of what can be called the Faces of Type. The Faces are pair patterns of Judging and Perceiving mental functions (ST, SF, NT, NF). There is a unique combination associated with each type. Each of the 16 types has 2 primary Type Faces (derived from the fact that each of us responds to both E and I energy sources): a more public outer-energized face and a more private inner-energized one. While these faces hide the true type, they are not masks in the sense of being false because they are part of the overall Gelstalt of type. They are extrapolations of our type. While our Myers-Briggs Type is a lifelong constant, the Type Faces are the building blocks of a maturing and developing personality.

    Type Faces and Archetypes. Jungian analyst John Giannini believes the 4 primary pairings of judging and perceiving mental functions represent the fundamental Jungian archetypes of the Briggs & Myers' model. These 4 basic archetypes can be expanded to 16 by having them be expressed in either the 'e' or 'i' attitude and by which of the 2 functions in the pair takes the lead (i.e. is the principal function). For example, when ST is introverted it plays out somewhat differently than when it is extraverted; likewise when the coupling is reversed in order with Thinking predominant (TS) we get 2 more variations on the general theme of the pairing of Sensing-Thinking. Our 2 primary faces are anchored by our 2 most preferred mental functions, indicated by the middle 2 type letters. One anchors the extraverted face, the other the introverted face. The remaining 2 mental functions are aligned in a complimentary and supporting role to more fully define the 2 primary faces. So each Face has both a judging and a perceiving function. Here it is a diagram illustrating this pattern for ENFP.



    This same pattern could be depicted in table. The right column represents the "E" energized face (NeTe); while the left column identifies the "I" energized face (FiSi). The subscripts "i" and "e" appended to the mental function letters signify the "introverted" or "extraverted" expression of the mental function. Thus Fe is extraverted Feeling; Fi is introverted Feeling.




    Type Paradoxes -- An I/ENFP example -- These natural changes and growth in adults account for the apparent paradoxes we sometimes observe in people of all types. Development of the NeTe face of INFPs accounts for the "coolness" and "detachment" we sometimes observe in them. INFP mid-life changes, such as an increasing desire to organize and take charge of one's life or to stop being used as a doormat by others, are consistent with this developing outer NT. Some INFPs have become quite proficient in masking their "true feelings" with their NT face. This same facility in their ENFP cousins has them able to mimic ENTJ stereotypical behavior. They can assume control, take charge of a situation, make the hard decisions, and move on with their job. They can have masterly control over lawyer-speak, slicing careful nuances in meaning and logic. Even though they prefer Feeling over Thinking, they can become and are competent attorneys. While NFPs are people-oriented folks, many are drawn to latest technology and technological gadgetry of all sorts -- ascribable to their extraverted NT face. Let's look at the other primary I/ENFP face (SF). The SF pattern suggests a persona more consistent with the "traits" frequently ascribed to ENFPs -- the warm, fun and people loving side of their personality who can very much live in and enjoy the moment. INFPs more typically keep the SF face hidden, yet it provides the energy for their participation in helping professions, all kinds of nurturing activities, and their interest in performing arts and arts and crafts work in general.

    The Mirror Image Faces (Shadow functions). By middle or later age, additional psychological growth may have produced new patterns that are the mirror image of the two primary faces. The "I" face has an "E" reflection and the "E" face has an "I" reflection -- as illustrated in the INTJ Chart below.



    An INTJ is not only developing an inner NiFi, but also an outer NeFe. Thus, she begins to actually talk the walk and walk the talk. The 4th face, though largely hidden from the outer world, has risen to be more within the conscious awareness and thereby affecting more of the INTJs' conscious behavior. As this 4th face (SiTi) garners more influence, the INTJ may crave a higher degree of inner simplicity and rational order; i.e. a simpler, more orderly, less complex life. Perhaps these changes, overlaying additional faces or new archetypes arising, accounts for the mellowness that seems to frequently come with moving into our senior years.

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