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Thread: Archetypes of the Functions

  1. #111
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    I imagine the sense of completeness in a romantic partner might come out in the emotional images that surface when we think of a beautiful romantic day:

    ISxJ's: exploring new possibilities, to "create new memories".
    INxJ's: enjoying rigorous tangible experience together, and extracting meaning from it.
    IxTP's: strolling through a beautiful setting involving an atmosphere colored by other people; admiring technical things.
    IxFP's: working side by side at some sort of logical organization with a humanitarian purpose.
    ESxP's: someone to get lost with in a world of conceptual frameworks such as archetypes and symbolism, and then realizing their dreams.
    ENxP's: enjoying nostalgia together, and exploring them as exciting possibilities
    ExTJ's: someone who gives them a sense of personal integrity, giving them further incentive for their logical ordering.
    ExFJ's: exoploring technical wonders, and feeling connected through this.

    I can testify for the ITP one, which I realized must have something to do with Fe, beyond just "emotions". (recall, "The feelings reach us by way of the associated function"). I recalled that when I thought of other people's ideas of a romantic getaway, such as being alone on a desert island; I cringed, and imagined all sorts of horrible things (drown in the lagoon, bitten by poisonous creatures, captured by pirates or natives, or any sort of ailment, and no one around to help. Or, just us getting on each other's nerves, with no others to distract from that).
    All of my romantic images generally take place in populated areas, and while not necessarily interacting with the other people, they must at least be there to provide the background as I enjoy (and show off) my other half. (We went to the Poconos once, and tried the miniature golf, but it was just no fun without others, as it was when I once played it in a singles group outing, desperately wanting a partner. She often wonders why I want others around in things we do together).
    And it can't be a place where I don't fit in with the values, or feel otherwise rejected by the environment.

    I imagine an ISJ or INJ might be the types more likely to prefer the desert island, as it will more likely fulfill a Se or Ne sense of "adventure".
    ETJ's might have the sense of "you and me against the world"; finding the harmony within instead of without. Like in the song "Lovely Day" (Bill withers).

    So this picks up with the thought of two posts ago, that to attack the anima is to basically dash these romantic images by confirming our inferiority in those areas, and thus being unworthy. (And in real life, no one can ever fulfill this ideal companion, so we tend to just find fault with people who use the opposite perspective).

    Can the other types testify of these things?
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  2. #112
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Here, in a nutshell, is an example of the degradation of all four "primary" function sand archetypes, into all four shadows!

    Drawing upon the concepts of "abstracting" and "empathy", for shadow degradation, it then makes sense that if I prefer to devalue the object in favor of subjective content in technical relationships (the dominant ego perspective), and then tend to trust the object with humane relationships, and this is a vulnerable, shaky area (inferior); then if I constantly get "burned" there, I'll eventually withdraw the value from the object and place it back into the subjective content, in which I then strip it of its association with irrelevant elements (which don't make sense to the subjective content). The issue is still one of humane relationships, so it's not simply the dominant perspective "mixing" with the inferior, as some four-process theorists would argue. This is a negative, reactive response that is not consciously controlled, and using a humane perspective I normally dissociate from the subjective content.
    Likewise, when it comes time to take action through technical means, I'll merge with the object in a negative way to support ego's goals (and thus oppose the threat).
    This covers the spine.

    As for the arm, the child seeks relief (in my case, notalgia about the past) through Si, in which I devalue the tangible object in experience, and instead save the most relevant images. But the preferred perspective this is filtered through is still Ne, which merges with the conceptual object and says things should be open, and unique.
    If something conventional and closed is forced on me, that will make me feel like an oppressed child. So then, how will the person or institution responsible for this come across? As a negative, limiting parent, and one who forces a particular negative pattern, in which the object is now devalued, and a particular relevant element is locked in on, and thus not open and flexible. Thus, the projection of the Senex through the perspective of Ni. And then, how does this child deal with this perceived bad parent? Try to get him off my back through trickery, merging with the environment of emergent tangible data; being "bad" myself through the Trickster with Se (which is also simultaneously projected onto the other person in the form of a menacing bully.
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  3. #113
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    When Se is in Opposing Personality role, the ego function is Si, which internalizes concrete experience as memory. When this is challenged, the focus is shifted to current reality to backup past knowledge. (after all, the past once was present, and is to be learned from in order to know what to expect in the present).

    In a similar fashion, when Se is in witch/senex role, Si is the function the ego uses to parent others. When the parental advice based on past knowledge is rejected, then the parent becomes critical and uses current reality to place blame and find fault.

    When Se is trickster, then Si is puer, and internalized concrete experience is what the ego childishly falls back on to maintain its introverted attitude. If this is challenged, the ego will use current concrete reality to get others off his back by pointing at others ("you do it too" defense {triggered when the ego is intimidated through the puer by memory-based fear of punishment}). "wanting to have its own way": wanting to see things for myself, and having concrete evidence for things such as spirituality.

    Se as demon: The person aspires to being more attentive to internal sensations. External sensations may undermine this.

    Si as Opposing Personality: The person is focused primarily on the present. The past is used as a reference to how it links to the present, which they will stubbornly cling to.

    Si as witch/senex: the person parents others by noticing current concrete data. If this is ignored, they will turn to past concrete data to criticize things by.

    Si as trickster: Sensory pleasure is a source of childlike relief. If this is threatened, they will reference past esperiences to get the person off their back.

    Si as demon: the person, immersed in the world of Ni, ultimately wants some connection to the concrete world, usually the present. Under stress, they may turn from present to past reality.

    Ne as Opposing Personality: The person usually has "knowings" based on internal abstract perceptions. If this is challenged, they will turn towards external stimuli to back up their perception.

    Ne as witch/senex: The person parents with foresight and following their visions. If this is spurned, they will turn to an external sense of possibilities to criticize with.

    Ne as trickster: The person finds relief in using their imagination to perceive the future. If this is intimidated, they would try to tie others down with multiple external interpretations.

    Ne as demon: They aspire to having a sense of the future. When stressed, it can turn into messed up interpretations.

    Ni as Opposing backs up Ne as hero. The ego cherishes multiple opportunities of external obects being open. If they are shut out, then the person will "lock on" to an internal negative perception of what will happen.

    Ni as senex/witch uses its perceptions to criticize or cast blame, with a cynical outlook on the future. They normally "parent" others with external-based multiple possibilities, but when these seem to be shut out by circumstances (or if they cannot obtain the meaning behind something), they will generate a specific perception internally, and 'parent' others in a negative fashion with this.

    Ni as trickster shadows Ne as child. Imaginativeness using multiple possibilities is a playful, childlike endeavor. If this is intimidated, the person will then try to bind the other person with negative premonitions of what will happen (such as a fight occurring. Like because the person really prefers Si-- and "parents" with it, someone may see them as unimaginitive. This will be striking at a vulnerable area, resulting in a possible angry reaction).

    Ni as demon: shadows Ne as anima. The person really has a typical aversion to too much abstraction (favoring internal concrete remembrance), but does aspire to seeing the meanings behind things. Under stress, this will become very negative forecasting "with detailed certainty" (Berens).

    Te as Opposing Personality will back up the ego's internal model of how things should be, and thus when the principles are violated, it will be "stubborn" about how things are organized.

    Te as witch/Senex will back up parental Ti which seeks to instruct others with its models. So when people do not follow the principles, it will turn to the external order of things to criticize and find fault.

    Te as trickster will shadow the Child, which delights in models and frameworks. If someone intimidates this, it will turn to external principles to strip down the offender.

    Te as demon: Very Feeling driven person, and while they have an aspiration to Ti, when things are out of order, they will overcompensate with a focus on efficient order of things.

    Ti as Opposing Personality: The person's hero is extraverted Thinking, which orders the world for efficiency. When this is challenged, they will turn inward to universal principles to stubbornly support their external focus.

    Ti as witch/senex: The person parents others with rules of external efficiency. When this is not adhered to, then they begin parenting critically with the universal frameworks and principles of the world that support the external rules.

    Ti as trickster: External efficiency is looked up to with childlike innocense. The person will turn to the underlying principles behind it as a last resort if intimidated.

    Ti as demon: The person has a deep down desire to be organized and systematic. If this is intimidated with too much logic, they then seek to rip to shreds the models and frameworks, proving them inconsistent.

    Fe as Opposing Personality: The person is driven by personal and universal values. If these are challenged, they will appeal to external values to defend the ego.

    Fe as critical parent is supporting Fi as good parent. ExFP's parent others with personal or universal values. If a group or people in a group are violating these, then the person will begin using external values to parent the people in a critical fashion (including blaming).

    Fe as trickster: The person finds relief through universal/personal values. External values are appealed to (often in an overgeneralized fashion) when motivating someone to do what's important, particularly if the person's bahavior is affecting them in some way.

    Fe as demon: The person's directive heroic external logic is ultimately driven by a deep sense of what's personally important. If this is violated, then they will use external values to put others down, or claim to be unfairly treated.

    Fi as Opposing Personality: The person is driven to accommodate others, but since this can easily be taken advantage of, when stressed, (or more frequently; from coming from a background of abuse), they will turn the value system inward and erect a hard stiff wall of what is important and desired to themselves personally.

    Fi as critical parent: The person parents others with external values. If this is ignored, a negative internal judgment system will erupt to sharply put down the offender.

    Fi as trickster: Social acceptance will be a vulnerable spot for them. If this is intimidated, they will use universal values to get others off their backs.

    Fi as demon: Fe as anima will be very dependent on others for acceptance. If others constantly reject the person, this will trigger a very negative, destructive "universal" sense of being no good as a person, which may also cause backlashes against others. Values will be used as a "club" to condemn offenders or their systems. The person will also vehemently resist any charge of violation of Fe or Fi values. They may be put off by any self-righteous moralizing in others (which pricks their conscience in a provocative way), and try to outo or take them down.
    I've added to these an overview for each function-attitude, in terms of the "add/subtract" definition of e/i:

    When Se is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of subtracting from tangible data what is irrelevant or untrusted, and now adds or interjects himself into the emergent experience in a (usually) more negative fashion.

    When Si is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of adding or interjecting himself into the emergent experience to subtracting from the tangible data what is irrelevant, in a (usually) more negative fashion.

    When Ne is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of subtracting from conceptual data what is irrelevant or untrusted, and now adds or interjects himself into the emergent data in a (usually) more negative fashion. He'll veer away from likely outcomes according to internalized conceptual patterns, and merge with the objects themselves, using their open, multiple meanings or possibilities to toss out at others, perhaps sarcastically.

    When Ni is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of adding or interjecting himself into the emergent possibilities to subtracting from the conceptual data what is irrelevant, in a (usually) more negative fashion. They now "lock on" to a negative outcome extracted from all other possibilities!

    When Te is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of subtracting from technical data what is irrelevant, and now adds or interjects himself into the logical aspects of the object in a (usually) more negative fashion. You try to promote your frameworks as the most efficient, and in some way get them implemented.

    When Ti is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of adding or interjecting himself into the technical content to subtracting from it what is irrelevant, in a (usually) more negative fashion. He now (temporarily) steps aside from the means to the end of implementing efficiency, to referencing the inherent "universal" principles, explaining why this is the way it should be, or why others should understand or act accordingly.

    When Fe is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of subtracting from humane content what is irrelevant, and now adds or interjects himself into the external interpersonal situation in a (usually) more negative fashion.

    When Fi is the shadow degradation; the person goes from a primary perspective of adding or interjecting himself into the interpersonal environment to subtracting from the external values what is irrelevant, in a (usually) more negative fashion. They now retreat to their own personal values (as a defense), which they normally adapt to accomodate others.
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  4. #114
    SingSmileShine
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    Check out my functions. Do you think I have more Se than the average ENFP?

  5. #115
    Senior Member Array INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingSmileShine View Post
    Check out my functions. Do you think I have more Se than the average ENFP?
    You dont have Se, if you score high on this fake Se you see on function tests, it means that you are using your Si through your Ne alot and tells that you most likely have some problems with Si.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  6. #116
    F CK all I need is U Array ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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    I got INTP, my INFJ friend who'se at uni studying to be a Psychologist/Counselor or Psychiatrist in this whole other country showed me this Myer-Briggs test, and also told me to go to wikipedia (which is so cool) to see what INTP is when I asked.

    They say their one is like them, I can't deny my one is sort of like me, ish, or whatever. (Still new to this.)

    http://www.futuramaff.com/showthread.php?t=14289

  7. #117
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    As a dev. at Physiognomy/Motus I have to say I do not see any of the latter four functions in the personality code expressed conciously visually in any of the people interviewed. As in, you cannot mentally project "unconcious signals" into your body language. I trust the four function model to be correct in this. And other projects, such as PRP and Pod'Lair doing visual typings seem to agree with us on this aswell. But take note, our project is just in the exploration phase so I cannot support these claims. Just - I trust in it to be correct.

    I don't see growth as in "learning to USE your concious four functions" - because I think most people use all four functions conciously in their daily lives. However, growth may be learning to use these functions effectively and not as opposed to each others. That's a whole different thing though.

    I like the thought on the inferior function being the gateway to your subconcious. I am a dream interpreter and I keep a dream diary. I am an ENFJ (Fe-Ni-Se-Ti with subconcious Fi-Ne-Si-Te.) and I have had encounters with the witch archetype (Ne) and the interpretation I did was that it was about my relation to my sister (ne-dom) and that I saw her as unruly and uncontrollable, that she kept changing her decisions, that nothing was clear, and it frustrated me a great deal. And the witch actually guarded a locked box, full of hidden insight. (Ni) which I wanted access to. I see the subconcious opposing self as our fears and they throw us out of our riffs, keep us from accessing insight, learning things, etc, etc.

    My encounter with Fe-Fi?

    Most of my dreams are actually about Fe-Fi. As in, I dream of myself as an heroic explorer, often working in pirate crews with groups of people, delivering goods and valuable stones to others (interpretted as connections) or fighting against monkeys (monkeys are people who "mirror" me you know, or try to deceive me.) I have had little experience or memory of fighting Fi in my dreams, sorry. I have had alot of Se-dreams. In which I meet a young girl that I hang out with, explore nature, amazing scenery, and just talk and enjoy the present with. (Could also be seen as Fe connection or Ti-intellectual stimulation) In those dreams, there are often elements of Si which are wonky such as us riding a train, and suddenly the train goes off track, so we have to get off, or other weird things were details don't match up, Si kinda proves as something I can laugh at later, weird off details. Inconsistensies. Things that don't match up. Such as a recent dream where I interrail travel across europe and I meet a friend but he's a little boy, and suddenly he turns into my friend again, because I think "hey, this doesen't match up!"

    Oh. And Ti dreams. Ti is what I've tied closest to dreams that are about exploring my inner feeligns and thoughts. They are dreams of churches radiating in many colours, and where I take the role of a detective solving puzzles and trying to figure out clues. How does Te show up here? Well, Te is supposed to be a demon archetype. No sign of demons. I don't think I've experienced Te in my dreams much.

    I consider myself a balanced built configuration Fe(Ni) 3w2, 7w6, 1w9 with a good relation to my inferior function Ti. (I involve myself in Ti and work hard on strengthening it because I've in the past wanted to impress people around me by being smart.) and with a decent use of Fe (But could be better)

  8. #118
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    Sorry, looking through this thread and just thought I had to see if this fits:

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Hero (Ni): A strong male figure with superpowers or magical abilities (including flight, invisibility, force fields and energy blasts) who steps in to save the day. Usually represented by myself in a dream, but sometimes can be a third party.
    Sounds more like Se-dream patterns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Parent (Fe): Usually, my actual parents. Alternatively, a wise male mentor figure, such as Professor X of the X-Men or Gandalf from LOTR. Can be somewhat stern and aloof, but at other times will save me from disaster.
    Seems more like Ti-father.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Child (Ti): A young boy, cocky and streetwise, may look like an urchin. He will initiate some type of bantering dialogue with me. He is charming and witty, but I get the sense that he is not to be fully trusted, or may attempt to steal something from me. However, if I decide to trust him, he may lead me along a secret path to treasure.
    Seems more like Fe. Really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Anima (Se) A beautiful female with flowing hair. She also tends to appear as a superhero with the power to control the elements, often assisting me in the dream. On a number of occasions, she has manifested as the Marvel superhero "Scarlet Witch".
    Ni.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Opposing personality (Ne) Can be male or female, usually charismatic and powerful. Will publicly denounce me in a very nasty way. May rouse an army of supporters to rise up against me; this can lead to open warfare on a grand scale.
    Unable to deduce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Witch (Fi) A woman who used to be my best friend, but who became increasingly unstable and manipulative. Escaping her clutches was one of the hardest things I've ever done; now she haunts my dreams!
    Hard to deduce. Too little information.
    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    Demon (Si) A dark male figure, only seen in silhouette. He lurks on the edge of a scene and is both sinister and seductive at the same time. He clearly is linked to my own Shadow side. At other times a monster of some kind, actively trying to destroy me. If I am in Hero mode, we may engage in an epic, superhero-type battle which commonly ends in a stalemate.
    Hard to deduce. Too little information.

    You dream more like a Se(Ti) according to Bebe.

  9. #119
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Here's a good site I found that has articles on this stuff, and in this one, an exposition of Beebe's take on Bob Dylan, which gives a good sample of how he breaks these things down in his model.

    http://typeindepth.com/2013/01/arche...-of-bob-dylan/

    It has some very interesting information about what happens with all the "arm" archetypes when the Puer (tertiary) is stronger than the Parent (aux).
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    Ni archetype *cough-special-cough-snowflake syndrome-cough*

    Is teh most powerfull funkshin in teh WORDL & it is more powerfuller then Si bekause evryting is bedder tehn Si OMGFTWZOMGZOMGLOLSJSAREEVILSJSCANROTINHELL i'm Ni i see teh big piktur im so much bedder tehn yoo lololololol

    Se archetype

    Iz not so bad i meen at leest its bedder then Si rite? kuz Si iz liek teh devil!!!!! but Se's arnt so bad exept Se is USELESS! OMGESFPSANDESTPSARESOANNOYINGANDEVILTHEYCANROTINHE LLALLSPSAREEVILEXCEPTISTPSISTPSHAVENOEMOTIONSANDTH ATSAGOODTHING

    Si archetype
    ZOMGZOMGWTF!!!!! teyh ar so EVVIVLLL! I just want tehm to DIE in a NUcular war!!!!LOLLOLSISARESONARROWMINDEDURGHHIMSUCHANINTP ANDALLSISAREEVILANDSTUPIDALLSENSORSARESTUPIDANDEVI LLETTHEMGOROTINHELL!!!!!!!!!


    ........sorry, I had to vent....

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