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Thread: Archetypes of the Functions

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mort Belfry View Post
    I did the functions test at Understanding the Eight Jungian Cognitive Processes / Eight Functions Attitudes a couple of times and the order of my functions seems to quite random, but follows Lenore's model to some slight degree.

    1st - Ti - My Dominant - Excellent
    2nd - Ne - My Auxilary - Excellent
    3rd - Te - My Backup - Good/Average
    4th - Fi - My Devillish - Average
    5th - Si - My Tertiary - Average
    6th - Se - My Trickster - Limited
    7th - Ni - My Critical - Limited/Unused
    8th - Fe - My Inferior - Unused

    It almost seems that after developing your first two functions you either develop you Tertiary or Backup and cascade down from there finishing your develoment with your Devillish or your Inferior.
    Just responding so I will know where to find this topic later. I am glad that I found this topic, because I have contemplated on creating one.

    Athenian, I think Beebe's term for inferior function is different than what we most understand that term to be in general. Your inferior is actually something that you use well. You would have little or no use of Si. If you disagree with Beebe's theory, then do you prefer Lenore Thomson's lasagna? Thanks for starting this thread Protean.

  2. #92
    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    When I added the posts above about the complexes being about "projection", I knew there must be more to it, but at the time had just enough to build a working basic explanation of how they surface.
    Continuing to research and put things together, and gaining more of a perspective from a discussion I've been having; I can now add more to this.

    The shadow complexes are 'constellated' in response to specific threats to the ego. The ego has boundaries; both external ones (against all that is not self), and internal boundaries (between the conscious and unconscious). These boundaries are manifest as our defenses. Particularly against painful emotions that can be damaging to us. When these defenses are challenged, then the ego's integrity is at stake.

    So from what I gather, the Opposing Personality is a reaction towards the ego and especially its heroic dominant perspective and persona being opposed or obstructed. Obstruction might also be when ego's connection with the anima is obstructed.

    The Senex/Witch is the reaction against negation and vulnerability. Negation would seem to be a challenge to the parental authority of the auxiliary perspective, and vulnerability would be from threats to the child. Hence, this post
    The Role of Shadow Functions in MBTi Type (from "A Closer Look at the Auxiliary Function") where intimidating the child triggers both the witch and trickster (which is the "mirroring" dynamic I have been discussing lately).

    The Trickster is a reaction against being controlled or put upon. (child feels burdened, parent feels powerless).

    Hence, here also, the Parent figures in tandem with the Trickster.
    An example of the child being intimidated and the parent overwhelmed is like a 14 year old, where on one hand, the grownups are still saying you're too young for a whole bunch of rights they enjoy (negation); but on the other hand, you're now old enough for them to be putting more responsibilities on, and always saying "you're TOO OLD for..." whatever aspects of youth you're trying to hold on to. (most likely, shirking responsibilities, or using childish means of getting your way).

    I called it the "vacuum" or "void" age. You would think we would have the best of adulthood and childhood, but instead, it seems like they're trying to give us the worst of both; the best of neither.

    So at an age like 17, where you're still in this inbetween period, and given more responsibilities, but still not yet much of an adult's rights, you might point out "I'm old enough to go to war, but not to vote, drink, etc."
    You use the double-standard to try to bind the other person.

    The Demon is basically a reaction against a threat of ego death: the removal of its boundaries.
    So, it might erupt when the ego feels totally helpless, especially when the anima is under strong attack.

    The Demon and Trickster are also said to appear at times when there is danger of ego disintegration. This is when the ego's boundaries (mainly, in this case, its defenses) are breached. We would then be left defenseless agains damaging emotional content. So the larger Self dispatches these last stands to protect its integrity. This might occur during trauma, where demonic figures appear in dreams threatening to destroy you in some way, or the the person's ego might confuse itself to bind him from taking action that might expose him to more trauma.

    From here, there is a debate as to whether these complexes surface only in those kinds of severe instances, or in everyday situations.
    The way they were originally conceived is more the former, and our own Sim (formerly here, at least; still at Perc) is one who leaned that way. Beebe, of course, introduced the latter view.
    For now, I believe it is a combination of both. You could say the everyday constellations of the complexes are miniscule versions, for when the ego's boundaries feel threatened in more miniscule, everyday ways, especially by emotional pain.

    It is true, that the Trickster and Demon, as discussed by Donald Kalsched were originally more about trauma.
    I have also seen a notion that the whole shadow (which originally to Jung was one single archetype) was more likely what we know as the Opposing Personality. Sort of like four-process theory, where the inferior is considered the whole shadow, this is basically a five-process theory.

    I found this review of one of Kalsched's books by Beebe where he provides a bit of rationale for having four shadow complexes rather than them being "blurred into a master mythologem like Jung's dark Mercurius, who too easily becomes a metaphor for the whole shadow in all its shape-shifting aspects": http://www.global-elite.org/MKUltra/...%20Trauma.html)

    Seeing now that the original concepts were about trauma made me have to consider if the Trickster and Demon were necessarily the best archetypes to assign to the negative child and negative anima roles. (There were actually hundreds of archetypes to choose from. The ones we discuss are just those Beebe chose to represent the ego's cognitive dynamics).

    Still, for now, apparently, it seems there are miniscule versions of the energies that hail from this space for lesser threats, that are nevertheless seen as grave to the ego's position.

    Hence, both the 7th and 8th functions as brain hemisphere lateral alternatives or "mirrors" of the dominant and aux, as well as shadows of the tertiary and inferior. (Even though it should be pointed out that Lenore Thomson does not take it this way; it's the connection of the two theories that I'm making).

    Again, when these complexes are triggered, the feeling will likely reach us by way of the associated functions.
    Last edited by Eric B; 10-26-2010 at 10:30 AM.
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    Examples of the four shadows (and how the primary functions-complexes are involved in their constellation) with me:

    When things are organized in a way that doesn't make sense, and especially if I am affected negatively by it, then I feel opposed or obstructed. Especially if I come up with some idea based on an extension of personal or even universal principles, and people reject it in favor of some agreed upon convention.

    My inner sense of how things should be (hero Ti) is being violated, and I have noticed that I also often feel out of touch with life (anima Fe) for not being able to fit in with the program.
    As I have pointed out here: OK, check this one out! (On the eight functions), the anima is about "otherness" and the aspects of life the ego cannot control. When Fe is anima, blows to the ego's dominant perspective will likely seem to make you feel inferior among people.

    So to compensate, I project this oppositional complex on those involved, and may respond in kind.

    I also feel negated, which then triggers this cranky perspective that fits the situation into negative, often archetypal patterns.
    Like when some old building whose architecture I like (especially if it is unique in the context of the region it is built in) is torn down, it triggers a critical perception of the symbolic significance of the event (huge powerful corporations stomping out "the little people"; if the bulding was run down, it has "succumbed" to its decay, rather than being "redeemed"), and noone is destroying the rich and powerful's world (i.e. the developers) like that.

    I then see other possibilities neglected (parent Ne) and memories or things that remind me of my fond memories disappearing (child Si).

    So I then project this "critical" complex. It's this part of me that wants to believe every occurrence I don't like has some negative significance. I then look to blame someone for it.

    This then brings to mind that standards often imposed onto me, which I am not allowed by those around me to violate. I then begin to point back at the things that offend me (or others) to prove a double-standard and thus bind either the person chastising me, or the person doing the same things I'm chastized for (which may very well be the same person!), and "reverse the expectations". The aim is to show them that they themselves need to produce what they are demanding from me.

    This in my case involves simply the visible facts in the current moment.

    I feel intimidated from remembering being chastized in the past (child Si) and I probably feel something is being expected of me that goes against my ego's sense of authority or what I WANT to be helpful to others with (parent Ne).
    So it switches to its right brain alternative.

    As for the Demon, I'm wondering, about myself; as an Aspie who was never understood by the people around me. So they try to shake you up by trying to make you conscious of the things you are not conscious of, and in a way not done with other people. You need "more help" with your life skills. (And the "unfairness" between how you're treated compared to others is noticed).
    So I'm thinking that this results in the normal ego boundaries being constantly battered, and you become aware of your flaws, but can only do so much about them, and at the same time, wonder why other people are allowed to have their flaws and get away with them, and take on a massive sense of injustice you feel passionately about. Not only is it a serious blow to anima Fe that wants to fit in, but it so totally doesn't make sense to hero/persona Ti.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    The thing about those structures is that they're probably all right, because no one develops in the same way.
    I think the development might be different for each person. I don't the system can be defined outside of itself. Although I would say that the patter of functional development for me feels more like:

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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    For me, I think, it was

    • 0-3 years old : Domimant/Backup
    • 3-10 years old : Dominant/Discovery/Relief
    • 10-13 years old : Dominant/Auxiliary/Discovery
    • 13-18 years old : Transformational/Dominant/Aspirational
    • 18-22 years old : Auxiliary/Comedic
    • 22 years old-Now: Auxiliary/Relief/Backup/Aspirational
    It almost seems that after developing your first two functions you either develop you Tertiary or Backup and cascade down from there finishing your develoment with your Devillish or your Inferior.

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    Member Array Srho's Avatar
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    That's a cool thing you found! I got Fi>Ni>Ti>Ne>Fe>Si>Te>Se.
    Agree, every onedevelops differently. But it's still fun, hehe.

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    Just added this new "mirror" illustration.

    While the other one I did showed how all the functions are really just projections of the dominant and auxiliary, this one shows how the four shadows are reflections of the first four. Hence, the Dom/aux become # 7 and 8, which are also the brain lateral alternatives, the tertiary or Puer becomes the Witch/Senex (and the Senex actually in the original conception of the archetypes was the shadow of the Puer, rather than of the Good Parent as it is in this theory). Anima/animus becomes the Opposing Personality, as ahown by both being contrasexual.
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    Never actually been in this thread... lot of information here... what's the story about the five people in here with very few posts (four under 10; the other under 25) who have all been banned? was it Jack Flak making dupe accounts?
    The Justice Fighter

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    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

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    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    You could check the Banned and the Damned thread. Though they don't always say who the dupe account was, or even exactly what the person did.
    ------------

    This new illustration features a number of the symmetries inherent in the system, and I didn't even particularly plan it that way.
    I chose a one-sided arrow, because it could be rotated and reversed and look different in all of the resultant eight positions.

    The "Hero" happens to look like a "1" (not intended), but then this is good, as it represents the ego, and looks out for "Number One" as it is put.
    It is pointing upward, and facing forward (left in this case). Upward then represents the ego's orientation (e or i), while forward represents the ego's preferred perspective. The Auxiliary, or Parent is pointing forward but downward. The tertiary and inferior are the reverse of these, and the shadows (reflections) are aligned the same vertially, but rotated horizontally. The OP and Witch Senex are reflected from the backward facing child and inferior, and thus end up facing forward like the dom and aux. (again, left).
    The spines point up and down, while the arms are lying horizontally. (That also was not intended, but just fell into place!)
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    ⒺⓉⒷ Array Eric B's Avatar
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    In coming to understand the functions in terms of emotions:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...-emotions.html
    I have gained a further understanding of the dynamic of how functions are "used" so to speak, but the ego.

    To repeat, the functions convert emotional responses into cognitive data. The functions that best maintain a feeling of control between emotions and the rational mind, will be those we consciously prefer.

    This also helps me rephrase the definition of the shadows I had earlier proposed.

    The Self tries to bring the shadow perspectives into consciousness, and the ego resists this, trying to keep them out of consciousness when they go against the ego's goals. When they do come into consciousness against the ego's wishes, it will often take the form of an erratic reaction, often responding in kind through the perspective of the function, or behaviors associated with it. This is what would be commonly misconstrued as "uses of shadow functions", "irritation" by certain functions, "allergic reactions", etc.
    What happens in midlife, is that when the ego grows a bit bored of seeing life through its lifelong perspectives (seeing they haven't really solved the pains of life), it weakens its defenses, and the suppressed perspectives are able to come into consciousness more. The ego can either continue trying to resist, or instead become more open to them. (Hence, it's not a matter of the functions automatically "developing" like the first four did). This is what is supposed to lead towards "individuation".
    The "traumatic" occasions, described by Donald Kalsched, are special instances of the Trickster and Demon, where the Self now tries to keep damaging information out of consciousness, despite whatever the ego is trying to do with it.

    Anyone can do these things using the functional perspectives, but for the type with that function connected to that archetype, there will be a heightened emotional investment in the action or reaction, as the function translates the emotional responses involving the complex into cognitive information.
    Last edited by Eric B; 02-22-2011 at 10:56 AM.
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