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Is Keirsey Right?

SilentStream

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INTP
Well, a desire for (and fear of) change and openness (and closed) to new ideas are also distinctly human traits. Do you honestly think that anyone is mindlessly open to new ideas all the time or that SJs are mindlessly traditional 100 percent of the time?

I don't see why Intellect and Liberalism correlate to N anymore than Fantasy does, using this logic.

And plenty (if not most) of the Ss here who have taken the Big 5 had a low preference for Fantasy.

What I find in the case of fantasy is that most people enjoy reading, watching movies, and so forth to be entertained, not to be inspired.

That's true, most people do only watch fantasy for its entertainment value and not for the inspirational possibilities it suggests. Imagination is a difficult trait to pinpoint.

My dictionary defines imagination as: 1. A mental faculty forming images or concepts of objects not present to the senses. 2. The ability of the mind to be creative or resourceful.

(Def. Create: to bring into existence)

I'm not sure where I'm going with this! Hmm... I was just thinking that maybe intuitive people actually have less need to watch fantasy films and read fantasy books because they have a greater ability to dream up their fantasies in their own heads. I know the worlds in my head are much more interesting than the ones in movies. Perhaps people who have little imagination need to watch fantasies others have created because they cannot make them themselves and therefore can never escape their own reality. That would be depressing.

Oh dear I think I've been arguing against what I said before. It depends on what you define imagination as. I think everyone can form images or concepts of objects not present to their senses (otherwise only intuitives could dream), but can everyone form the image of something that they have never seen with their own eyes? I don't think so. An extreme eg. is einstein's theory of relativity - that is not everyday imagination at work.
 

"?"

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Personally, I only know 2 people who are intuitive and the rest are sensors, so I am inclined to agree with keirsey's statistics. Out of the about one hundred people that attend my family's local church I have met one intuitive (the husband of a regular attender but who doesn't go himself). Of course, I cannot be sure of my typing abilities, but I have known these people for most of my life.
And you know this because they verbally confirmed their types to you, not based on your speedread of their behavior right?
 

The Ü™

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Oh dear I think I've been arguing against what I said before. It depends on what you define imagination as. I think everyone can form images or concepts of objects not present to their senses (otherwise only intuitives could dream), but can everyone form the image of something that they have never seen with their own eyes? I don't think so. An extreme eg. is einstein's theory of relativity - that is not everyday imagination at work.

They can if they develop it. (And everyone uses it passively.)

Imagination is a collection of previous sights, sounds, thoughts, and experiences synthesized to form a new concept. It's not like it comes from nowhere.

Some people just use this process more on the conscious level.
 

SilentStream

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And you know this because they verbally confirmed their types to you, not based on your speedread of their behavior right?

Of course not, do you think I could get 100 people to listen to me about MBTI, let alone have enough knowledge of it to type themselves? You'll just have to trust my judgement.

They can if they develop it. (And everyone uses it passively.)

Imagination is a collection of previous sights, sounds, thoughts, and experiences synthesized to form a new concept. It's not like it comes from nowhere.

Some people just use this process more on the conscious level.

So are you saying that strongly imaginative people are more likely to be intuitive? I have to admit that I don't know many imaginative people, perhaps because all my friends and family are sensors.

BTW I agree with your definition of imagination.
 

"?"

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Of course not, do you think I could get 100 people to listen to me about MBTI, let alone have enough knowledge of it to type themselves? You'll just have to trust my judgement.
But what if your judgment is wrong? Many people I encounter would claim that I am without a doubt, extraverted. In fact years ago I allowed my former secretary to take a test for me and she considered me ESTJ. My family would wonder who someone was referring to if they heard me described as extraverted. Back to the point, if you are wrong in judgment about these people's type in reading them only superficially, then you would be equally in error in agreeing with Keirsey from your own experience. There is no method currently available to determine statistics of type and the method being used groups too many types into one category.
 

Mondo

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I don't mean to be rude but a lot of people who test as iNtuitive who type a lot of famous people as iNtuitive seem to mostly be projecting themselves onto those famous people or are just not really so great at typing others..

Also don't have them take humanmetrics.
I have had people take humanmetrics and another test and approximately 30% of the people tested as iNtuitive on humanmetrics and 70% on another test..
 

SilentStream

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But what if your judgment is wrong? Many people I encounter would claim that I am without a doubt, extraverted. In fact years ago I allowed my former secretary to take a test for me and she considered me ESTJ. My family would wonder who someone was referring to if they heard me described as extraverted. Back to the point, if you are wrong in judgment about these people's type in reading them only superficially, then you would be equally in error in agreeing with Keirsey from your own experience. There is no method currently available to determine statistics of type and the method being used groups too many types into one category.

I understand where you are coming from, I probably have mistyped some people, it is not possible to know 100 people well enough to be completely accurate. But as there is no fool-proof method currently available to determine statistics of type there is no way of knowing how many intuitives there are! From my own experience it seems to be around 5-10%, but maybe it's a combination of where I live and the types of people I grew up with naturally congregate together. When it comes to religious people in an organized religion that would not surprise me.

I don't mean to be rude but a lot of people who test as iNtuitive who type a lot of famous people as iNtuitive seem to mostly be projecting themselves onto those famous people or are just not really so great at typing others..

Also don't have them take humanmetrics.
I have had people take humanmetrics and another test and approximately 30% of the people tested as iNtuitive on humanmetrics and 70% on another test..

I think projection when it comes to typing others can skew the conclusions also. I know that when I first learnt about MBTI I thought all of my favourite people were intuitive, but I soon realised that just because we got on well doesn't mean we come at life from the same perspective, in some cases I'd never really understood them at all!
 

"?"

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I can appreciate your candidness SilentStream, and I guess the only way that I can look at it until there is a full proof system is to say there is a 6.25% equalness across the board. I say this because "Gifts Differing" admits that many are born with a tabula rasa that allows the environment to develop their personality. This being the case, the western culture exemplifies SJ behavior, but other cultures may appear more NF, NT, or SP.
 

Chris_in_Orbit

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I understand where you are coming from, I probably have mistyped some people, it is not possible to know 100 people well enough to be completely accurate. But as there is no fool-proof method currently available to determine statistics of type there is no way of knowing how many intuitives there are! From my own experience it seems to be around 5-10%, but maybe it's a combination of where I live and the types of people I grew up with naturally congregate together. When it comes to religious people in an organized religion that would not surprise me.


There are a lot more intuitives than you think. You are saying you only met 1 intuitive out of 100 people at your church. It has been my experience that those sort of gatherings are very Sensory-y. You're not going to get an accurate ratio of type from a church just like you aren't going to get an accurate one from this website. I don't know if Keirsey is right either, however I really don't know why people are so hung up on percentages.
 

Chris_in_Orbit

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I can appreciate your candidness SilentStream, and I guess the only way that I can look at it until there is a full proof system is to say there is a 6.25% equalness across the board. I say this because "Gifts Differing" admits that many are born with a tabula rasa that allows the environment to develop their personality. This being the case, the western culture exemplifies SJ behavior, but other cultures may appear more NF, NT, or SP.

Eh? Thats the first time I've heard anything like that. Do you have a website or something where I can find out more?
 

"?"

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Eh? Thats the first time I've heard anything like that. Do you have a website or something where I can find out more?
Which part? The "tabla rasa" or clean slate is from Myers-Brigg's book, "Gifts Differing". The statistic that I claimed is a simple division of the 16 types (100/16=6.25).
 

Anja

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The tabula rasa theory has been around longer than the MBTI and has been called into serious question. Rightly so, I believe.
 

"?"

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The tabula rasa theory has been around longer than the MBTI and has been called into serious question. Rightly so, I believe.
I have no doubt that there are serious questions, no different than free will/predestination. Since there is no evidence that we are genetically inclined to a particular type, questions can and should be raised on both theories. Regardless there remains no facts to support type rarity, and how the statistics add up should be equally questioned.
 

Chris_in_Orbit

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I thought it has been shown that personality factors such as introversion/extraversion do indeed have a genetic component. I've never believed in tabula rasa.... what an ancient idea.
 

"?"

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Sure, but are you not referring to introversion/extroversion? There is a difference and Jung purposely spelled his differently to refer to how we take in energy. Besides E/I only shows the attitude of a function (S/N, T/F), no more. And the J/P is merely a redundance of the extraversion of S/N or T/F.

There are easy and quick tests like this one. But I think the average person is ambiverted. Now it’s easy to argue the chicken/egg scenario of am I an introverted extravert, or an extraverted introvert. It’s one of those things that MBTI missed in creating their inventory since I have always been ambiverted.
You have both introvert and extrovert tendencies. While you may be a wallflower at an event where you don't know anybody, you could be the life of the party at events where you are comfortable with those surrounding you.
 

Eric B

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As I have been mentioning elsewhere, there are a few factors that are blended which can create this "introvert/extrovert" mix effect. Not only I/E, but cooperative/pragmatic also helps shape how fast you approach others (Like ISFP's active streak, because of the SP, despite the IF), and both Informing/Directing and Structure/Motive are forms of people/task focus, with people-focus being a kind of "extroversion" as well.
 

WithoutaFace

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I just got his newest book "Brains and Careers" and he seems to think that Guardians make up 50% of the population, Artisans make up 40% of the population, Rationals only make up 5% of the population, and Idealists only make up 5% of the population.

What do you guys think about this?
I feel like I know a lot more than 10% iNtuitives. (More like 25%)
I handed out a survey to a large random sample of students at my college and there was a 75/25 S/N ratio.

If this is true, I don't mean to sound all emo, that would really make clear why there are so few people in the world I can actually relate to...

Perhaps the distribution is different at a college compared to the census population?
 

PureWhispers

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Well, in my experience, N's seem to find each other. My "main" group of friends at my university is all N's except for maybe one person (and this is out of a good 15+ people). Of course the ratios of S to N among my friends wouldn't be representative of, say, the whole student population of my college--because we probably ended up befriending each other in part because of that small similarity.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the general population was only 10% N.
 

ptgatsby

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Since there is no evidence that we are genetically inclined to a particular type, questions can and should be raised on both theories.

There is a lot of evidence for this. Not that MBTI has done a lot of twin studies AFAIK, but there are some in the overall picture and every trait has a genetic component. This is true in the large picture as well, and will apply to any personality theory (ie: big five, original studies referenced).


--

I believe Kiersey's numbers come from a very early MBTI study and is not representative of the population.
 
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