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  1. #31
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    I have to agree with Mondo and a few others here.

    He's right that most people just prefer to use Sensing.

    I've done this before with people using the book Do What You Are, with the S/N table near the front of the book. And nearly everyone preferred Sensing over Intuition, even with something that really wasn't even a quiz.

    I think the N bias is mostly in the online tests (Human Metrics and, even worse, similarminds.com tests), along with stereotypes that are attributed to online writings (though which somehow get thrown on Keirsey).

    I don't know that mistypes are as prevalent as people say.

    As for the Global 5 Openness correlation. It seems to me that the only universal N trait is Fantasy, since, by definition, it is the N type who "gives himself up to fruitless fantasies." The Intellect factor seems to overlap with N and T (where STs score average, NTs score high), and the Liberalism (Values) factor seems to overlap with both utilitarian temperaments (SP and NT). (As a cooperative type, the NF could be traditional, too.)

  2. #32
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    As for the Global 5 Openness correlation. It seems to me that the only universal N trait is Fantasy, since, by definition, it is the N type who "gives himself up to fruitless fantasies." The Intellect factor seems to overlap with N and T (where STs score average, NTs score high), and the Liberalism (Values) factor seems to overlap with both utilitarian temperaments (SP and NT). (As a cooperative type, the NF could be traditional, too.)
    The reason why I don't think Fantasy is an N trait is because when you get into the realm of what fantasy is most people think that it's unicorns or parallel universes, which is a type of fantasy. I'm thinking people believe that reality-based fantasy isn't epic or otherworldly enough to be true fantasy so it's not considered.

    Dictionary.com says fantasy is
    1. imagination, esp. when extravagant and unrestrained.
    2. the forming of mental images, esp. wondrous or strange fancies; imaginative conceptualizing.

    I saw a movie a couple of years ago called Paprika where characters are completely separated from reality. Yeah, that's undoubtedly extravagant and unrestrained imagination. Then I think about the whole Romance genre of literature that for all intents and purposes is realistic fantasy-based literature and I can tell you most of the authors write for an SF audience. There's also the element of vicariousness wrapped up in how people experience fantasy, with sensors wanting fantasy that they can see themselves possibly engaging in. To me that counts as imaginative conceptualizing but maybe others have higher standards.

    Basically what I'm saying is I think the type of fantasy a person engages in can be "S" or "N" but the inclination to engage in fantasy is not necessarily an S or N trait. Look at how often people go to the movies or read fiction as a form of escapism or a chance to deviate from regular life. Hell, the internet is one big wet sloppy fantasy land and it's doing pretty well.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #33
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    I think his figures are fairly spot on based on the work I did in the UK (although some differences).

    Lis

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    The reason why I don't think Fantasy is an N trait is because when you get into the realm of what fantasy is most people think that it's unicorns or parallel universes, which is a type of fantasy. I'm thinking people believe that reality-based fantasy isn't epic or otherworldly enough to be true fantasy so it's not considered.

    Dictionary.com says fantasy is
    1. imagination, esp. when extravagant and unrestrained.
    2. the forming of mental images, esp. wondrous or strange fancies; imaginative conceptualizing.

    I saw a movie a couple of years ago called Paprika where characters are completely separated from reality. Yeah, that's undoubtedly extravagant and unrestrained imagination. Then I think about the whole Romance genre of literature that for all intents and purposes is realistic fantasy-based literature and I can tell you most of the authors write for an SF audience. There's also the element of vicariousness wrapped up in how people experience fantasy, with sensors wanting fantasy that they can see themselves possibly engaging in. To me that counts as imaginative conceptualizing but maybe others have higher standards.

    Basically what I'm saying is I think the type of fantasy a person engages in can be "S" or "N" but the inclination to engage in fantasy is not necessarily an S or N trait. Look at how often people go to the movies or read fiction as a form of escapism or a chance to deviate from regular life. Hell, the internet is one big wet sloppy fantasy land and it's doing pretty well.
    Okay, now I can see where you're getting at.

    Personally, I assumed fantasy orientation to be the more stereotyped version of it (AKA unworldly fantasy).

  5. #35
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    But seriously, that dude knows what he's talking about. The best MBTI/Jungian typology scholar that I've come across. If anyone knows a better one, I'd like to hear about it.
    Sorry I haven't seen it yet, in particularly where MBTI comes in. Keirsey's work is based on temperament and at best can group varied types into a commonality (SP,SJ,NT,NF). However I am suspect of his work by going further, in particular in attempting to come up with a statistical number based on Jung's 8 cognitive functions.

    In short you can't say there are X amount of E or I unless you know that you are referring to a particular cognitive function. If you say there are X amount of introverts are you referring to Si,Ni,Ti,Fi and the same for extraverts? If you say there are an X amount of N's are you referring to Ni or Ne? We know that Ni may be quite rare, but Ne gets to go along for the ride by just being intuitive. On the other hand if you say there are an X amount of S's, are you referring to Si or Se? We may be able to argue that Si is quite common, but Se gets grouped in because it's a sensing function.

    Until someone determines stats based on the functions, there is no evidence of type rarity. In fact from what I have read, the only time that Jung alludes to type rarity is to say that it's very rare for any person to be 100% of any cognitive function. Myers Briggs also alludes to the reason why there may be more SJ's in saying that many are born with a blank slate and their culture determines the outcome of those people's type.

  6. #36
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    If you say there are an X amount of N's are you referring to Ni or Ne? We know that Ni may be quite rare, but Ne gets to go along for the ride by just being intuitive.
    This seems true in my case. I know many intuitives, but the majority are ENXPs and INFPs.

  7. #37
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    not sure if it helps but I put on some profiling questions onto an omnibus (nat rep sample), and the proportions of types worked out fairly similar to Keirsey.

    Now maybe the shorter version scales are less accurate, but given they are giving similar proportions I am not buying it.....

    Go with the proportions stated I don't beleive they are wrong.

    Do be careful of all your mates being N types of S types etc, different environements or people attacked to each other....

    I work in an SJ organisation but an NT team, we have about 30-40% of the whole team are NT, the rest of the business is huge but we are a pocket of big picture (possibly cos I recruited a fair few)

    Lis

  8. #38
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, a while back I indulged myself. There's a simplified self-test in GD Lawrence's People Types and Tiger Stripes, third edition, which I copied out onto two pleasant and cheerful pages. And handed out in class. With some preparation and a little post-test debriefing, 166 students (18-19 year-old female tertiary students majoring in Language) coughed up preference claims that when compiled, looked like this:

    TYPE (x) y (z)
    x=total number of persons out of 166 reporting this type
    y=as a percentage
    z=percentage of females reporting this type per average population according to Type Statistics and Surveys

    ESTJ (9 ) 5.4% (6.3 )
    ESTP (4 ) 2.4% (3.0 )
    ESFJ (13 ) 7.8% (16.9 )
    ESFP (8 ) 4.8% (10.1 )
    ENTJ (7 ) 4.2% (0.9 )
    ENTP (11 ) 6.6% (2.4 )
    ENFJ (9 ) 5.4% (3.3 )
    ENFP (20 ) 12.0% (9.7 )

    ISTJ (6 ) 3.6% (6.9 )
    ISTP (2 ) 1.2% (2.4 )
    ISFJ (15 ) 9.0% (19.4 )
    ISFP (11 ) 6.6% (9.9 )
    INTJ (4 ) 2.4% (0.8 )
    INTP (4 ) 2.4% (1.8 )
    INFJ (21 ) 12.7% (1.6 )
    INFP (22 ) 13.3% (4.6 )

    Which gives us:
    ST (21) 12.7%
    SF (47) 28.3%
    NT (26) 15.7%
    NF (72) 43.4%

    And:
    S: 41%
    N: 59%

    Presumably, that they were (mostly) all female, were all university students, and are all studying Languages makes a difference to the stats. Also, the "test" was wholly and totally unprofessional and ill-informed: they did it as a surprise exercise in speaking English.

    I believe I may take them test-driving SUVs in the park next.

    NB: That partikalr book makes the difference between S and N by asking the testee to pick a preference based on one or more sentences that stand out from the following ten (and NOT to mull over all the sentences too much), thus:

    S pays most attention to experience as it is.
    S likes to use eyes and ears and other senses to find out whats happening.
    S dislikes new problems unless earlier experience shows how to solve them.
    S enjoys using skills already learned more than learning new ones.
    S is patient with details but impatient when the details get complicated.

    N pays attention to the meaning of facts and how they fit together.
    N likes to use imagination to come up with new ways to do things, new possibilities.
    N likes solving new problems and dislikes doing the same thing over and over.
    N likes using new skills more than practicing old ones.
    N is impatient with details but doesnt mind complicated situations.

  9. #39
    Member SilentStream's Avatar
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    Personally, I only know 2 people who are intuitive and the rest are sensors, so I am inclined to agree with keirsey's statistics. Out of the about one hundred people that attend my family's local church I have met one intuitive (the husband of a regular attender but who doesn't go himself). Of course, I cannot be sure of my typing abilities, but I have known these people for most of my life.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    The reason why I don't think Fantasy is an N trait is because when you get into the realm of what fantasy is most people think that it's unicorns or parallel universes, which is a type of fantasy. I'm thinking people believe that reality-based fantasy isn't epic or otherworldly enough to be true fantasy so it's not considered.

    Dictionary.com says fantasy is
    1. imagination, esp. when extravagant and unrestrained.
    2. the forming of mental images, esp. wondrous or strange fancies; imaginative conceptualizing.

    I saw a movie a couple of years ago called Paprika where characters are completely separated from reality. Yeah, that's undoubtedly extravagant and unrestrained imagination. Then I think about the whole Romance genre of literature that for all intents and purposes is realistic fantasy-based literature and I can tell you most of the authors write for an SF audience. There's also the element of vicariousness wrapped up in how people experience fantasy, with sensors wanting fantasy that they can see themselves possibly engaging in. To me that counts as imaginative conceptualizing but maybe others have higher standards.

    Basically what I'm saying is I think the type of fantasy a person engages in can be "S" or "N" but the inclination to engage in fantasy is not necessarily an S or N trait. Look at how often people go to the movies or read fiction as a form of escapism or a chance to deviate from regular life. Hell, the internet is one big wet sloppy fantasy land and it's doing pretty well.
    Yep.

    I have never agreed with the assumption that the colloquial definition of imagination correlates with intuition. Imagination is a distinctly human trait that everyone enjoys to some extent. And it is clearly obvious that fantasy is the favourite hobby of almost everyone, when it comes to films, novels and stories. So if someone is asked about their preference for fantasy and imaginative pursuits, of course the results are going to be skewed towards intuition. I also think that describing intuition as the ability to look for and see possibilities is also a bit misleading, from my experience SPs love new possibilities.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilentStream View Post
    Yep.

    I have never agreed with the assumption that the colloquial definition of imagination correlates with intuition. Imagination is a distinctly human trait that everyone enjoys to some extent. And it is clearly obvious that fantasy is the favourite hobby of almost everyone, when it comes to films, novels and stories. So if someone is asked about their preference for fantasy and imaginative pursuits, of course the results are going to be skewed towards intuition. I also think that describing intuition as the ability to look for and see possibilities is also a bit misleading, from my experience SPs love new possibilities.
    Well, a desire for (and fear of) change and openness (and closed) to new ideas are also distinctly human traits. Do you honestly think that anyone is mindlessly open to new ideas all the time or that SJs are mindlessly traditional 100 percent of the time?

    I don't see why Intellect and Liberalism correlate to N anymore than Fantasy does, using this logic.

    And plenty (if not most) of the Ss here who have taken the Big 5 had a low preference for Fantasy.

    What I find in the case of fantasy is that most people enjoy reading, watching movies, and so forth to be entertained, not to be inspired.

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