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ENFX Hypocrisy

Blackwater

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This is a thread akin to the one about INXJ and close-mindedness. The base question for this thread would be something like:

Do ENFXs commonly have problems with sincerity and/ or hypocrisy?

The premise for the question being that an EN will have an easy time tuning into what people want while the F will accommodate. Being more recognizable in ENFPs I have yet to experience an ENFJ who wasn't "strategically insincere" (i.e. a hypocrite to some degree) and the scary thing is that the ENFJ is all the more Machiavellian.

Let's turn to some examples:

ENFP

From Bluewing’s post on "types gone bad":

-Strive to convince people of their sincerity because this is the only way they could feel good about themselves.

In my experience the type needn't go bad at all to do this, it's just second nature.

Or take the following New York Times quote on a supposed ENFP:

"He means exactly what he says and tomorrow when he says the opposite he'll mean exactly that too."

Which, again, has been exercised by every single ENFP I've known. Valuing accommodation and the present situation over "distant" principles they just don't perceive the insincerity and hypocrisy that invariably follows.

ENFJ

Again, the ENFJ has no introverted anchor to keeps its opinions still.

Isabelle Myers on the ENFJ:

"Apparently the urge to harmonize extends even to intellectual opinions. A very charming ENFJ who has been interested in type since her high-school days to me earnestly, "So-and-so asked me what I thought of type, and I didn't know what to tell her, because I didn't know how she felt about it." (Gifts Differing p. 95)

Or from Personalitypage:

"…Which is not to say that the ENFJ does not have opinions. ENFJs have definite values and opinions which they're able to express clearly and succinctly. These beliefs will be expressed as long as they're not too personal. ENFJ is in many ways expressive and open, but is more focused on being responsive and supportive of others. When faced with a conflict between a strongly-held value and serving another person's need, they are highly likely to value the other person's needs."

General Assessment

The things described thus far point mostly to insincerity. But how does that become hypocrisy?

- Most notably by the ENFX agreeing to one thing in one social setting and then saying the opposite two hours later. While this can be insanely charming in smaller matters this approach constitutes a prime example of hypocoristic when applied to matters of morale.

On a deeper psychological level, ENFX hypocrisy can be explained by the fact that ENFXs usually wallow in Fundamental Attribution Error ( Fundamental attribution error - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). Being Extroverts they are more likely to explain their own actions by their environment, yet they attribute the actions of others to 'innate characteristics', thus leading towards judging others while justifying ones' own actions. In other words, another prime example of hypocrisy.

MBTI. Psychology. Humor. History:

Postmodern Mind
 

FFF

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I really like my ENFP friend... maybe too much.
 

cafe

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I guess I don't consider what you are describing here insincerity and/or hypocrisy. They are just getting caught up in the moment and saying what comes to mind, syncing with the spirit of the environment. If you stay with them over a period of time and give them enough neutral settings, you will find what they believe and what they believe is normally what they do act upon.

To me, insincerity involves an intent to deceive, especially to advance oneself, and hypocrisy involves saying you believe one thing, but consistently acting in a way that contradicts that, especially when there are no addictions involved.
 

Brendan

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I will purposely hide parts of myself if I'm not sure how it will be received, and to be honest, I'm very, very good at lying... No pun intended.
 

cafe

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I will purposely hide parts of myself if I'm not sure how it will be received.
Is this the same as letting people believe what they want to about what you think when what you think really isn't any of their business?
 

Athenian200

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I would say that sometimes they can be hypocritical, especially if they aren't grounded well enough to evaluate what they actually believe. But then a lot of people can. It doesn't necessarily make them bad, they just can't see that they're doing it, or they can't help it. It only looks hypocritical if you assume that people are supposed to hold constant beliefs that don't change based on the situation. Does this make any sense?
 

Brendan

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Is this the same as letting people believe what they want to about what you think when what you think really isn't any of their business?
Pretty much.
 

Blackwater

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They are just getting caught up in the moment and saying what comes to mind, syncing with the spirit of the environment.

...And not realizing the ramifications of their behavior. Agreed.

To me, insincerity involves an intent to deceive, especially to advance oneself, and hypocrisy involves saying you believe one thing, but consistently acting in a way that contradicts that, especially when there are no addictions involved.

Maybe I haven't found the optimal words for the behavior. Insincirity and hypocrisy implies that these types harbour worse intentions than they actually do (more unfair to the ENFP than the ENFJ) but hypocrisy is often a subconcious endevaur, actually, more often than not it is a subconcious process.

It only looks hypocritical if you assume that people are supposed to hold constant beliefs that don't change based on the situation.

Shouldn't oppinions be based on insights rather than situations? Mob justice is a good example of the former.
 

Blackwater

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Only children and fools say everything they think.


There's a difference between not saying what you think and saying the opposite of what you think/ or being overly susceptible to the feelings of fleeting moments.

Mob justice is a good example of the former.

What I mean by mob justice is that the mob will act upon the sentiments present in any given situation. In the most dramatic of examples, they will lynch someone, only to wake up and find out that they didn't really mean to take things that far. A hyperbole example, I know.

Conversely, I could also supply a real life example:

I once worked with an ENFX producing a television show. Our editor had aired some intentions of censorship regarding our show and its content, should it be too radical. Not having signed anything, I knew that their intellectual copyright still pertained to us, the authors, and I made this ENFP promise me that we wouldn't let ourselves be censored.

Then one morning my ENFX partner calls me a says that the editor has just stated editing out a certain joke. Realizing that the editor has no right to do so without our approval I rush to the television station and prepare to browbeat the editor, only to find out that my ENFX partner had given the clear, caving into accomodation-pressure from the editor.

To be fair, the censored part wasn't particularly good though. But that is another story.
 

Varelse

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They are just getting caught up in the moment and saying what comes to mind, syncing with the spirit of the environment.
I've seen that, sometimes. It can make it a bit more difficult for me to trust them, when I can't determine if they're committed to what they're saying or not.:huh:
 

Brendan

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There's a difference between not saying what you think and saying the opposite of what you think/ or being overly susceptible to the feelings of fleeting moments.
Well, other than these two things having nothing to do with eachother, I've never said the opposite of what I actually think or believe if I wasn't being sarcastic.

And well, being susceptible to the feelings and emotions of a fleeting moment doesn't really have anything at all to do with that.
 

spirilis

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Well, other than these two things having nothing to do with eachother, I've never said the opposite of what I actually think or believe if I wasn't being sarcastic.

And well, being susceptible to the feelings and emotions of a fleeting moment doesn't really have anything at all to do with that.

The two would relate if the 'feeling of the moment' happened to involve doing something which does directly contradict something you personally believe in. I'm having trouble imagining someone doing this but I'm sure it happens.

Example: ENFP 'A' is making a grocery store run with friend 'B' who decides it's no big deal to steal a container of steak spices by putting them inside his jacket. The two of them are getting supplies together for a big steak dinner with other friends and they're in a bit of a hurry. 'A' wholeheartedly despises stealing or dishonesty in any form but saw 'B' grab the container and stuff it in his jacket. They're at the checkout counter. 'A' has a dilemma:
1. Convince 'B' to put it on the conveyer belt quietly, or if he doesn't, raise hell with the cashier (getting his friend in trouble) or
2. Look the other direction and hope for the best

Which might you do?
 
R

RDF

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[...] Do ENFXs commonly have problems with sincerity and/ or hypocrisy?

The premise for the question being that an EN will have an easy time tuning into what people want while the F will accommodate. Being more recognizable in ENFPs I have yet to experience an ENFJ who wasn't "strategically insincere" (i.e. a hypocrite to some degree) and the scary thing is that the ENFJ is all the more Machiavellian. [...]

I have ENFJ friends. As an INFP (and a fellow Dominant F), I get what ENFJs are doing and feel that it is legitimate.

Dominant Fe types (ENFJ and ESFJ) seek the value and worth of others and then work to organize that value in social settings. They negotiate using values, feelings, and social norms as their currency of choice. NTs may not see the benefit of that exercise (or may only see it in negative terms: hypocrisy). But man is a social animal, and Dominant Fe types are prized assets in social settings or workplace roles like a team facilitator or Human Resources.

For comparison: Dominant Te types (ENTJ and ESTJ) process and organize the world around them according to principles (ENTJ) and facts (ESTJ). If they are in charge of soldiers on a battlefield or workers in a factory, then they may have to manipulate the fates of their subordinates rather cold-heartedly to meet the changing demands of the factory or the battlefield. NFs may not see the benefit of layoffs and battlefield casualties or may find those exercises duplicitous and demeaning. But man is also a production or battlefield resource at times, and the appropriate rules apply.

I see Dominant Fe and Dominant Te doing roughly the same thing (engaging in organization of their environment in one way or another) but just using different tools. It wouldn't occur to me to call either one hypocritical. They are just using their organizing skills toward a goal that is usually fairly obvious and straightforward (if you look at the world from their point of view, anyway).

The OP also asked about ENFPs. To me, ENFPs are a bit different. They operate chiefly from Dominant Ne. As a Dominant F, I sometimes see ENFPs as a bit nuts myself. I don't always understand their priorities. But I wouldn't consider ENFPs hypocrites. They just prioritize differently from me. (Dominant Ne seems to be more about processing and transforming.) Once I observe them long enough and figure out their priorities (discover the method to their madness), then they become at least predictable if not necessarily understandable. In any case, there's no particular reason to label them hypocrites (as a defining characteristic of their personality type, anyway) any more than any other type that has different priorities from mine.

FL
 

Brendan

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The two would relate if the 'feeling of the moment' happened to involve doing something which does directly contradict something you personally believe in. I'm having trouble imagining someone doing this but I'm sure it happens.

Example: ENFP 'A' is making a grocery store run with friend 'B' who decides it's no big deal to steal a container of steak spices by putting them inside his jacket. The two of them are getting supplies together for a big steak dinner with other friends and they're in a bit of a hurry. 'A' wholeheartedly despises stealing or dishonesty in any form but saw 'B' grab the container and stuff it in his jacket. They're at the checkout counter. 'A' has a dilemma:
1. Convince 'B' to put it on the conveyer belt quietly, or if he doesn't, raise hell with the cashier (getting his friend in trouble) or
2. Look the other direction and hope for the best

Which might you do?
That's not hypocrisy, it's a moral dillemma. He despises stealing, but obviously despises the thought of getting his friend in trouble.

Personally, I would try to convince my friend to pay for it, and if he wouldn't, I would tell him I'd pay for it, but if he insisted on stealing it, I'd be very disappointed, but I'd hope he didn't get in trouble.

There seems to be a big judgement among NT's towards NF's that to us, living in the moment means letting the moment take control, instead of taking control of the moment. I can tell you immediately that with this NFJ at least, this is the furthest thing from the truth.
 

Economica

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This isn't my thread, but I am friends with Blackwater IRL and I think I know where he's coming from.

Of course, people are allowed (welcome ;)) to update their opinions, and diplomacy is indeed a trait to be treasured, but there is a good example in post #10 of an ENFX whose stand was irredeemably fickle. Do the rest of you never experience ENFXs being ineffective at best and pitiful at worst in situations when they cannot please all people at once (including staying true to themselves)?

In my experience, ENFPs and ENFJs are masters at distracting from and smoothtalking their way out of such dilemmas, respectively. But when push really comes to shove, does the lack of a backbone turn out to be a problem area for ENFXs (much like how I claimed closed-minded certitude is one for INXJs)?

---

Incidentally, I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective. If someone wants to start a substantial thread about ENTP weaknesses, especially ones they find that Blackwater suffers from, I'm sure that he will be both delighted and receptive. :yes:
 

ptgatsby

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Incidentally, I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective. If someone wants to start a substantial thread about ENTP weaknesses, especially ones they find that Blackwater suffers from, I'm sure that he will be both delighted and receptive. :yes:

Hmm, and here I was thinking how ironic it was that an ENTP was complaining about fickleness :D It's all about perspective.

That's something to keep in mind. There is very little difference between an ENTP and an ENFP, except that ENFPs will generally get along with people better. The example given was most likely about bending under pressure when faced with it... something that everyone will do, although, in theory, Fs will do it more.

INTPs fickleness with not finishing things to an ESTJs fickleness for what rule to follow, or an ESFP's fickleness with who they like... Or an ENTP's fickleness with what project they will focus on. All perspective.
 
R

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This isn't my thread, but I am friends with Blackwater IRL and I think I know where he's coming from.

Of course, people are allowed (welcome ;)) to update their opinions, and diplomacy is indeed a trait to be treasured, but there is a good example in post #10 of an ENFX whose stand was irredeemably fickle. Do the rest of you never experience ENFXs being ineffective at best and pitiful at worst in situations when they cannot please all people at once (including staying true to themselves)?

In my experience, ENFPs and ENFJs are masters at distracting from and smoothtalking their way out of such dilemmas, respectively. But when push really comes to shove, does the lack of a backbone turn out to be a problem area for ENFXs (much like how I claimed closed-minded certitude is one for INXJs)?

---

Incidentally, I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective. If someone wants to start a substantial thread about ENTP weaknesses, especially ones they find that Blackwater suffers from, I'm sure that he will be both delighted and receptive. :yes:

I've given both ENTPs and INTJs a hard time for their negative qualities in the past. But that was in the context (at least in my mind) of investigating a single facet or an extreme of their nature. Or counterpunching from a put-down of INFPs. In the recent thread about INTJs, I presented a broad neutral category (pattern-seeking), then extended the example out to magical thinking and personality disorders at the extreme. At least that's what I intended. I certainly didn't mean to boil all INTJs down to nothing but a personality disorder or a mental illness.

The OP for this thread, on the other hand, appeared to consider hypocrisy as a defining characteristic of ENFXs. For example:

Do ENFXs commonly have problems with sincerity and/ or hypocrisy?

[...]

In my experience the type needn't go bad at all to do this, it's just second nature.

[...]

Which, again, has been exercised by every single ENFP I've known.

[...]

ENFXs usually wallow in Fundamental Attribution Error

Maybe I'm reading it wrong; but in that case the OP could perhaps have done a better job of distinguishing and separating out the exception or the extreme case from the basic nature of a healthy, normal ENFJ or ENFP.

FL
 

spirilis

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There seems to be a big judgement among NT's towards NF's that to us, living in the moment means letting the moment take control, instead of taking control of the moment. I can tell you immediately that with this NFJ at least, this is the furthest thing from the truth.

Hm, you make a good distinction there. I've personally seen ENFPs exhibit far more "letting the moment control them" behavior than the other way around, however. I really think that is a distinction between the P and J-types -- J-types may be predisposed to take control of the moment, while P-types may seem to respond to the moment as it controls them. I have some examples but would rather not share them in public. However most of them are ENFP examples; I have very little experience with ENFJs in person...
 

Economica

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Hmm, and here I was thinking how ironic it was that an ENTP was complaining about fickleness :D It's all about perspective.

I can testify that fickleness is one ENTP problem area that Blackwater has left behind. :yes:

ptgatsby and FineLine, you really don't recognize this as-yet-not-properly-named problem area for ENFXs - not even as translated by me? :sadbanana:

I'm off to bed, goodnight everyone. :)
 
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