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Thread: ENFX Hypocrisy

  1. #51
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    You and Economica refuse to address any of the multitude of objections raised here.
    Hey, FineLine, I just haven't gotten around to it. I've only made quick posts today; tomorrow I'll have the time to write something longer.

    But as long as we're not dealing with the subject of ENFX motives, I look forward to encountering both of you in other threads and hearing your input on other subjects.
    Well, I will post a reply. (You've accused me of closed-minded certitude; how can I not? ) If you don't want to answer, I won't hold it against you. Your posts reek of repulsion from the thread (originally caused, as I understand it, by the admittedly flawed OP) and I wouldn't be replying either if I felt like that.

  2. #52
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    I just don't get what the OP is talking about. That's only been my experience with one immature ENFJ. I really think that maybe you guys just happened across a very unrepresentative sample of ENFs? 'Cause it seems like the majority of people here have experience that suggests otherwise.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  3. #53
    Junior Member amber_rk's Avatar
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    I'm glad to have found this thread because I have an ENFJ friend who is really close, whom I could talk about regarding her characters.

    Similar to the description of ENFJ hypcrisy described above, I frequently felt that my friend was a hypocrite because of her inconsistent actions. She would constantly think of what others would evaluate about herself, and act differently according to situations in order to earn appreciation.

    Plus, she loves appreciation, admiration, attention - which she would sacrifice her logic (to me, it is like throwing away beliefs and logic of your own) and beliefs (if she has one) to gain those things. I normally think she is a very, very self-absorbed person who cannot but constantly think what others would think about herself. She has a tremendously large self pride which will often collides with the wish to please others but turn into a horrible stress that would hunt her for long time.

    I frequently argued with her because I disliked how she behaved. I always thought her actions were hypocritical and pointless, and her intentions were to reach 'good judgement' from social norms.

    Also, she is very sensitive towards criticism, (which I never care about when I have to criticize her actions) and would think about trivial remarks from others for a long time.

    Regardless of this, I've been her friend for over four years and am a good advisor and a counselor to her when she has troubles. I often think she has hard time finding what 'she wants to do' because what she wants is ultimately to sustain good relations with others, (which can harm herself at some points)

    "Selfish but wanting to sacrifice to please others" was the conclusion I made after analyzing her for a while.
    I-31, N-25, T-55, J-27
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  4. #54
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Since this post is very long and for the sake of readers who have only skimmed the thread, I'd like to first emphasize my goodnatured intent once more. My focused participation in this thread is not caused by bottled-up dissatisfaction with the ENFXs in my life (to the extent that I am biased, I'm pretty sure it's in the other direction ). Instead my involvement reflects my interests in learning to bridge the NT/NF divide, preserving board harmony (out of empathy as well as for the sake of the quality of discussion) and, since your last post, FineLine, demonstratively practicing what I preach regarding closed-minded certitude.

    ---

    The (admittedly poorly-presented) starting point for the thread was Blackwater's observation that the ENFXs he knows exhibit conspicuously inconsistent behavior; "most notably by the ENFX agreeing to one thing in one social setting and then saying the opposite two hours later" (OP). That is, the observed behavior goes beyond diplomacy into active position flipflopping.

    (This is of course ironic since the NF types are supposed to value authenticity. However, perhaps an inherent difficulty prioritizing between people-pleasing and being true to themselves could be precisely why they take pride in accomplishing it.)

    Assigning the labels of insincerity/hypocrisy to such inconsistent behavior was obviously controversial and IMO it has blurred the discussion of whether the behavior is common among ENFXs (much like how I claim and others agree that closed-minded certitude is common among INXJs). For instance, Brendan writes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    I will purposely hide parts of myself if I'm not sure how it will be received, and to be honest, I'm very, very good at lying...
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Well, other than these two things having nothing to do with eachother, I've never said the opposite of what I actually think or believe if I wasn't being sarcastic.
    ...Two statements which I would welcome someone reconciling for me.

    (BTW, Lateralus, I get the same vibe from you as Blackwater does: Are you sure you're not in fact an ENTP?)

    I will now review the examples of ENFX inconsistency that have been given so far in the thread:

    ENFP

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Or take the following New York Times quote on a supposed ENFP:

    "He means exactly what he says and tomorrow when he says the opposite he'll mean exactly that too."
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    I once worked with an ENFP producing a television show. Our editor had aired some intentions of censorship regarding our show and its content, should it be too radical. Not having signed anything, I knew that their intellectual copyright still pertained to us, the authors, and I made this ENFP promise me that we wouldn't let ourselves be censored.

    Then one morning my ENFP partner calls me a says that the editor has just stated editing out a certain joke. Realizing that the editor has no right to do so without our approval I rush to the television station and prepare to browbeat the editor, only to find out that my ENFP partner had given the clear, caving into accomodation-pressure from the editor.
    Objection: The ENFP is genuinely updating their position.

    I don't know about the first case, but one might ask whether the notoriousness of the pattern does not belie the primacy of this motivation.

    In the second case it's just a flat-out no from the horse's own mouth. The ENFP in question admits to having caved to accommodation pressure twice (first the easy thing to do was to make the promise, then the easy thing to do was to break it). He didn't even know what his own position was. I say this matter-of-factly; I feel no contempt, just the desire to help him get in touch with his values and become the champion he could be.

    Objection: The behavior is not problematic.

    As Blackwater acknowledged in the OP, this form of inconsistency "can be insanely charming in smaller matters", however, Varelse hit the nail on the head:

    Quote Originally Posted by Varelse View Post
    I've seen that, sometimes. It can make it a bit more difficult for me to trust them, when I can't determine if they're committed to what they're saying or not.
    This also goes for the behavior as exhibited by ENFJs:

    ENFJ

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    [A slimy and slick coworker] made a joke and I was the only that laughed. I didn't think it was funny I just laughed because my other coworkers were giving him the cold shoulder. I don't blame them, he's not a nice person in my opinion.

    As soon as it was over, I was thinking to myself, why did you laugh? It wasn't funny. When I think about most of my interactions with this guy, I know I give a different impression than what I feel. I don't like him, have never liked him, but he would never guess it, or rather I'd go to great lengths to hide my true feelings for him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    There this ENFJ who makes occasional appearances in my life. (...) She has such an easy time tuning into what people want from her that she's constantly committing herself to promises which she can't/won't follow through. Specifically, she promised me, and my closest friends that she'd dump her guilt-manipulating boyfriend, only to stay with him for 4 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    (Another ENFJ) Has written a book on modern philosophy (kuhn, popper etc.). I know his opinions on the subject through and through and yet I have often seen him relinquish a standpoint in favor of accomodation, rather than sticking with his superior arguments, he'll end up saying the opposite of what he thinks in the present situation (although he won't actually change opinion accordinly). No one is served by this kind of behavior, really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shimpei View Post
    My ex who's ENFJ admitted to me once that he's a big hypocrite. I had to agree with him. He had been like this (deceiving others and himself in the church) for years.
    Quote Originally Posted by amber_rk View Post
    Similar to the description of ENFJ hypcrisy described above, I frequently felt that my friend was a hypocrite because of her inconsistent actions. She would constantly think of what others would evaluate about herself, and act differently according to situations in order to earn appreciation.
    To flesh out the first of Blackwater's two examples:

    The ENFJ stayed with her boyfriend for almost 5 years while telling her close friends for 4 of those years that she wanted to dump him. Indeed, seeing them together, it was obvious that she disrespected him and that there was little affection between them. For this reason, as the years progressed without her managing to dump him (she tried to do so twice but both times he emotionally blackmailed her into staying) and with her growing increasingly unhappy, our meetings inevitably turned to the question of why she did not either leave him or get some therapy. For years - and this is truly a tragic credit to ENFJ persuasiveness - she continuously convinced us that she would be leaving him very soon.

    Objection: She was obviously malfunctioning to the extent where it was unproductive to hold her rationally accountable as you seem to have done. Focusing on her inconsistency here is about as naively unfeeling as it gets.

    Guilty as charged.

    Objection: ENFXs are no more susceptible to inconsistent behavior than other types. You guys just happened across a very unrepresentative sample of ENFXs.

    Perhaps. That's partly what the OP wanted to investigate.

    If people can stand continuing this discussion (?) I say a poll (in a new thread) is in order. (Me statistics.)

    ---

    Please let me know if I have glossed over something crucial.

  5. #55
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Would more ENFs chime in about this issue? It's mostly non-ENFs defending with very little input from ENFs.

    I wonder if this is a case of not wanting to air our dirty laundry? Although I think I'm on the borderline of S and N, I still identify with the ENFJ description more and when I honestly think about my behavior in certain instances (like the one I gave) I can see how people would get the impression that I may be being insincere although it doesn't stem from conscious attempts to be a hypocrite.

    I often feel torn between being loyal to my friends and being nice to everyone. I have experienced many problems in the past where I was friendly to someone one of my friends didn't get along with and my friends found my behavior questionable. I think this stems from my desire to treat all people equally and if I have no direct reason (their beef is with my friend and not me) to act in a certain way I don't. Also, this may be selfish and Machiavellian () but I'm going to say it anyway, I never want to create enemies and I know exactly what to do to not create them. It's just not a good game plan. I'm probably not as altruistic as some other people here, but I'm not going to create any problems for myself and being "nice" to everyone helps a lot. In the past I have purposely made friends with people that are shunned (partly because I feel sympathetic) because you never know what the future holds and elephants have long memories. It really doesn't seem like good business to me. I suppose these actions can be interpreted as hypocritical, but that's not my motivation. OTOH, I have quite a high tolerance for foolishness from other people and I have stayed in situations where I am obviously not benefiting from the transactions based on a future hope of things changing. I hope this balances out in the universe.

    The problem of breaking promises is not something I do often. I go to extreme lengths to keep myself out of promises that I know I can't keep. If I do promise someone something I'll try to keep it, even to the exclusion of other things namely myself. I don't like inconsistent behavior in myself and that's usually enough to keep me in check.

    I admit to my bad behavior, and you may see other ENFs not being their glorious best but I doubt most of you are aware of the aftershocks. When I know that I have done something that is inconsistent with my ideals, I punish myself quite thoroughly. I don't even know how to explain how I feel, but it's really really NOT GOOD. Like missing work, staying in bed for days, crying kind of bad. My self-worth completely plummets and I lose sight of who I am. This is why I try to keep these instances to a minimum. It's just not worth how I feel afterwards.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  6. #56
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Economica, regarding my type, I think the F/T distinction is bullshit. It's more dependent on circumstance than preference. Whether you treat people warmly or coldly has far more to do with how you were raised than MBTI type theory. I act differently depending on the circumstances, but I am certain I'm an closer to being an ENFP than ENTP. You hardly know me, so I guess I can understand why you would be confused. Perhaps it would be better explained by someone who knows me better, like Jennifer.

    Regarding this entire thread...it's pointless. The entire premise is flawed. Humans are hypocrites. ALL HUMANS. So why does the OP notice this more in ENFXs? Perhaps it's because they talk a lot. I've seen this behavior in all sorts of people, not just ENFXs. The only consistency I've seen is that I see it more with extroverts than introverts, so my conclusion is that people who talk a lot are more likely to be exposed as hypocrites.

    I think this has almost nothing to do with MBTI and everything to do with maturity and self esteem. The reason you see it more in ENPXs is because they're more likely to be put in a situation where their hypocrisy could be exposed. It's that simple, really.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #57
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus
    Regarding this entire thread...it's pointless. The entire premise is flawed. Humans are hypocrites. ALL HUMANS. So why does the OP notice this more in ENFXs?
    The reason I have not felt the desire or need to respond to this thread has nothing to do with dirty laundry. I am honest about my flaws even those I would rather not disclose. The above statement explains perfectly my thoughts on the matter. Why defend bullshit? I think if this thread was meant to be a learning experience (as stated several times) it should have been done very differently. I appreciate that FL took the time to do what he did here. It appears to me people are going to believe what they want and nothing can be said at this point to change it. I think any "defense" contributed would be twisted honestly. I don't know if the other ENFs feel this way but I do.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  8. #58
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    I've seen this behavior in all sorts of people, not just ENFXs. The only consistency I've seen is that I see it more with extroverts than introverts, so my conclusion is that people who talk a lot are more likely to be exposed as hypocrites.
    So you're basically saying that an INTJ would relinquish a standpoint just as soon as an ENFP would?

    Regarding this entire thread...it's pointless. The entire premise is flawed. Humans are hypocrites. ALL HUMANS. So why does the OP notice this more in ENFXs?
    I agree that all humans are hypocrites in the sense that the psychologically project (former) vices onto others. However, that is clearly not the definition I, or anyone else, have been discussing in this thread.
    best collection of philosopher typings online

    http://www.celebritytypes.com/philosophers/

  9. #59
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    So you're basically saying that an INTJ would relinquish a standpoint just as soon as an ENFP would?
    She's not saying that, I don't think, but at the same time, given the general description of ProteinMix, the bolded parts are what I (an INTJ who values people and social interaction) can completely relate with:

    I often feel torn between being loyal to my friends and being nice to everyone. I have experienced many problems in the past where I was friendly to someone one of my friends didn't get along with and my friends found my behavior questionable. I think this stems from my desire to treat all people equally and if I have no direct reason (their beef is with my friend and not me) to act in a certain way I don't. Also, this may be selfish and Machiavellian () but I'm going to say it anyway, I never want to create enemies and I know exactly what to do to not create them. It's just not a good game plan. I'm probably not as altruistic as some other people here, but I'm not going to create any problems for myself and being "nice" to everyone helps a lot. In the past I have purposely made friends with people that are shunned (partly because I feel sympathetic) because you never know what the future holds and elephants have long memories. It really doesn't seem like good business to me. I suppose these actions can be interpreted as hypocritical, but that's not my motivation. OTOH, I have quite a high tolerance for foolishness from other people and I have stayed in situations where I am obviously not benefiting from the transactions based on a future hope of things changing. I hope this balances out in the universe.

    The problem of breaking promises is not something I do often. I go to extreme lengths to keep myself out of promises that I know I can't keep. If I do promise someone something I'll try to keep it, even to the exclusion of other things namely myself. I don't like inconsistent behavior in myself and that's usually enough to keep me in check.

    I admit to my bad behavior, and you may see other ENFs not being their glorious best but I doubt most of you are aware of the aftershocks. When I know that I have done something that is inconsistent with my ideals, I punish myself quite thoroughly. I don't even know how to explain how I feel, but it's really really NOT GOOD. Like missing work, staying in bed for days, crying kind of bad. My self-worth completely plummets and I lose sight of who I am. This is why I try to keep these instances to a minimum. It's just not worth how I feel afterwards.


    To me, it does appear to be a universal human thing, where ENFs perhaps just plain run into it more because they run into everything social-related more.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #60
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    So you're basically saying that an INTJ would relinquish a standpoint just as soon as an ENFP would?
    All other things being equal, yes. I believe an INTJ would be less likely to be giving their opinion in the first place. So that's why they appear less hypocritical. It's only an appearance. An immature INTJ is just as likely to be a hypocrite as an immature ENFP. If you don't believe that, then...well...I'll shut up. This is MBTIc, not INTPc.

    I agree that all humans are hypocrites in the sense that the psychologically project (former) vices onto others. However, that is clearly not the definition I, or anyone else, have been discussing in this thread.
    Oh please. That's exactly what you've been talking about. Are you backtracking now?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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