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Thread: ENFX Hypocrisy

  1. #41
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I appreciated the content of the posts as well, but just had to note this observation...
    Just for the record, the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Perhaps I should apologize; I originally opened this thread offering observations that I hoped would be challenged or to have the perspective therein contradicted or expanded. Instead, what seems to have happened is that people mistook the lack of OP-empathy as another prelude to T/F trench warfare. Too bad, really; I personally prefer the clinical approach
    was added after posts #37-39 were posted.

    Blackwater, you need to write "Edit: blablabla" when you do so.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    There's no need to be heated about this...
    Um, okay. Let me try to clarify. I was in a hurry when I wrote that last post, headed out the door for work.

    In post No. 36 you say, "I personally prefer the clinical approach". Your approach in the OP, however, seemed decidedly un-clinical.

    For example, in your OP you:

    A) used rather strong language (didn't qualify your assertions) as though to make the point that hypocrisy is a central feature of those personality types.

    B) You and Economica also supplied personal anecdotes about how those types had screwed you over, making the start of the thread seem whiny and vindictive on your part.

    C) It seems to me that you didn't establish any context for your criticism of those personality types until late in the thread; thus the criticisms sounded like an airing of personal pet peeves. It's only in the last ten or so posts of the thread that you've put your criticisms in the context of weaknesses of personality types in general ("All types have their own pathology").

    D) The OP specifically attempted to take a rather petty weakness (smoothness, glibness, and appearance of lack of sincerity) and spin it into a somewhat harsher deficiency (hypocrisy).

    Now, having said all that, let me qualify my own criticisms of your posts by admitting the possibility that part of the problem may be on my side. For example, in the OP you did put your message in the context of another thread (the reference to the INTJ thread), and I didn't bother to read the other thread in its entirety. And my own accusation of "vindictiveness" is inevitably a judgment call on my side.

    Nonetheless, in such threads as yours I would prefer to see the standard qualifiers, disclaimers, and context, just to make things clear and reassure me that you're not airing a lot of personal grievances about a couple personality types you particularly dislike.

    There are books and web sites on personality type that talk about the weaknesses of the various personality types, and they use a genuinely clinical approach. They use qualifiers to explain that the weaknesses of a given type aren't fatal flaws but rather immature manifestations of that personality type; they keep the descriptions impersonal; and they establish appropriate context by pointing out that all personality types have associated strengths and weaknesses, and that the weaknesses of one personality type are no more blameworthy than the weaknesses of other types.

    Taking the example of ENFJs specifically: The book type "Type Talk" is clear about the weaknesses of ENFJs and how they can appear to other personality types:

    ...all ENFJs...are often criticized as insincere or superficial because of their smooth and glib way with words.
    But the book "Type Talk" doesn't try to spin that weakness into "hypocrisy." In fact, the book does quite the opposite:

    ENFJs may respond to such criticism with incredulity, often followed by depression and self-doubt, because their sincerity and concern are their driving force and motivation.
    Similarly, the web site PersonalityPage.com also justifies the ENFJs weaknesses by pointing out how they spring from the ENFJs strengths and good intentions, rather than merely dismissing them as "hypocrisy."

    ENFJ Personal Growth

    For my own part, in my earlier posts in this thread I too tried to show that I see ENFJ weaknesses as immaturity at worst, and ultimately as outgrowths of their positive intentions and strengths (their organizational skills).

    Hell, as an INFP I tend to admire ENFJs. We're both dominant Feelers, so I'm interested in what ENFJs do with their F. ENFJs use their F as a tool to organize their environment and hence are very vocal with their F; but because of their J, they also put limits on how much they are committed by their F. Hence, they can use expressions of emotion but still set limits on how much nurturing and support they are required to give as a result of their emotional commitments. I think that's pretty neat. As an INFP, I frequently get led by the nose by my feelings to my own detriment. Without any J boundaries to help me set limits, I have a tendency to over-commit emotionally to the point of ruining my own life. I sometimes don't know how much I'm committed to a course of action by my expressions of emotions. So I can learn something from the ENFJs: their ability to set limits; their natural sense of a given emotion and how much commitment it may entail.

    I can make the same argument about ENFPs. That is, what they do may seem strange; but it springs from strength and good intention as much as weakness, and it may even serve as a positive example for other types. IOW, I think it's naive at best and vindictive at worst to attribute the worst possible motives ("hypocrisy") to ENFPs.

    In sum, I'm all in favor of some genuinely thoughtful discussion about the negatives of the various personality types. I think it's fair game if done properly, and I think everyone could learn from it. But I would prefer that it be done in the context of the standard qualifiers, disclaimers, and context, (and without trying to spin petty weaknesses into harsher deficiencies). That would help make things clearer and reassure everyone that we're not airing a lot of personal grievances about personality types that we particularly dislike.

    Oh well, I'm done with this thread. I've given it more time than it deserves. By the way, I'm not trying to bully you and Economica into changing your point of view. Rather, I'm responding to Economica's pleas for clarification (for example, post 27) and trying to show why I'm taking a rather unyielding position on this issue. I want to show that IMO there are some rather important principles at stake; hopefully I'm not just being a stick-in-the-mud.

    FL

  3. #43
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    FineLine, thanks for jumping back in to clarify despite obviously not enjoying doing so. I appreciate it and I really would like to clear this up on my own behalf if possible. I'm tired though, so the following comments will be disjunct:

    - I agree that opening with qualifiers, contextual disclaimers and statements of goodnatured intent is generally productive when bringing up a problem area for another type. That's what I would have done in a thread like this one. (Note that the INXJ thread I started is aimed primarily at my own type and that I explicitly acknowledge that I myself suffer from the problem; also, I will argue that the nature of the problem calls for heavy artillery in order to penetrate the formidable INTJ defense.)

    - Once that is said and done, I don't understand why one shouldn't use concrete examples from one's own life to illustrate the problem area that one has identified and wishes to discuss.

    - I'm disappointed that you seem to be ignoring or silently discounting my statements of goodnatured intent ("I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective", "I know Blackwater likes ENFXs very much, as do I", "It is not our intention to point fingers (...), merely to explore this problem area in order to understand and perhaps contribute to the personal development of ENFXs we are close to" etc.). Without a response to those assurances, I don't know what more to do in order to alleviate the conflict.

    I'm very tired now, but I hope I have managed to communicate my good will.

    Goodnight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    FineLine, thanks for jumping back in to clarify despite obviously not enjoying doing so....
    Okay, I'll respond. It's probably selfish of me to launch another big broadside at you and Blackwater and then tell you I'm done with the thread. Typical self-involved INFP behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    - Once that is said and done, I don't understand why one shouldn't use concrete examples from one's own life to illustrate the problem area that one has identified and wishes to discuss.
    You can. But put those examples in context. Tell both sides of the story. Did you even ask the other person why they did the thing that they did? What was their response? What was their justification for their actions?

    I wasn't much impressed by the examples of ENFJ/ENFP perfidy that you and Blackwater presented. They were mostly pretty tame stuff. Based on the very short descriptions you presented, it seemed to me that most of those examples could have been committed by many different types of Ps out of sheer laziness, or explained away by unforeseen circumstances requiring a change of course on the part of the ENFJ/ENFP.

    Also, you should probably put the stories in the context of MBTI. Show how their motivation matched some facet of their personality type. As ptgatsby pointed out, you are lumping two very different personality types together (ENFJs are Fe-Dominant Judgers and ENFPs are Ne-Dominant Perceivers), making it hard to parse which problems were related to which type or even to the concept of personality type at all.

    Also, was the ENFX stressed? If so, that would affect his actions or words. Show how that fits into that person's profile.

    In short, the anecdotes were pretty nearly useless to an outside observer. Don't misunderstand me; I know from experience how frustrating ENFPs and ENFJs can be in certain circumstances. (All types can be frustrating to me at times, including other INFPs. )But a second-hand anecdote about being disappointed because someone didn't keep a promise is largely useless from an MBTI point of view. It says more about you (it's interesting to gauge the level of your disappointment over these incidents) than about them. We need to hear from them why the promise couldn't be kept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    - I'm disappointed that you seem to be ignoring or silently discounting my statements of goodnatured intent ("I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective", "I know Blackwater likes ENFXs very much, as do I", "It is not our intention to point fingers (...), merely to explore this problem area in order to understand and perhaps contribute to the personal development of ENFXs we are close to" etc.). Without a response to those assurances, I don't know what more to do in order to alleviate the conflict.
    I have been largely focused on the OP and the deliberate attempt to take a petty type-related weakness and spin it into a full-fledged moral deficiency that supposedly taints the interactions of two very different personality types. What comes after the OP is largely immaterial. It doesn't matter how nice you are about it; as long as you guys keep insisting on the charge of "hypocrisy," I disagree with you.

    I don't doubt that you and Blackwater are nice people. I get the message that you've gotten a little fed up with the wishy-washiness of ENFXs, and you think you have located the core of their problem with the word "hypocrisy." You still like ENFXs, and you want to stress that it's nothing personal, but you want to jolt them into better behavior by letting them know that they are routinely acting like hypocrites. Fine.

    I like you and Blackwater. As for your personality types, I like ENTPs and INTJs. Both types have very sharp intellects and I really like interacting with both types.

    But I also think you're wrong about hypocrisy being at the core of ENFX behavior. I also think you're leveling a pretty serious charge. As the MBTI books point out, it's technically wrong to accuse ENFJs of a "lack of sincerity"; sincerity is actually an important value for them. Accusing them of hypocrisy IMO is worse yet.

    So I continue to be rather adamant about the point that you've got it all wrong. I'm not being adamant because I dislike you or because I dislike INTJs and ENTPs. Like or dislike doesn't have anything to do with it. I'm being adamant because I think you're wrong about the "hypocrisy" charge.

    Don't get freaked out about the "vindictiveness" charge. I wasn't saying that you and Blackwater are vindictive or that ENTPs and INTJs are vindictive. I just said that you may want to reconsider how you two are advancing your argument. The tone of your argument is coming off as vindictive (IMO) rather than convincing. While I trust you guys when you say that you like ENFJs and ENFPs, the one-sided personal anecdotes about petty ENFX rip-offs sound whiny. Thus, better adherence to a truly clinical approach would help clear up any potential ambiguity over personal motives and put the argument on a proper MBTI footing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I'm very tired now, but I hope I have managed to communicate my good will.
    Absolutely. You've demonstrated your goodwill time and time again in this thread and elsewhere in other threads. And given that Blackwater is a friend of yours, I'm assuming that Blackwater is also a person of goodwill. Birds of a feather, and all that.

    But goodwill is not really the issue here. I'm addressing the charge of hypocrisy.

    FL

  5. #45
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    From what I've read and skimmed on this thread, the issue appears to be the difference between "unhealthy" and "healthy" ENFXs.

    Personally, I know three healthy ENFJs, two healthy ENFPs, and one unhealthy ENFJ. Although, "immature" is the more appropriate word. He's also late teens, so it's not a high degree of immaturity.


    The healthy ENFXs I know are able to really connect with people, bring out the best in others, make others feel appreciated and worthy, and let everyone have a better time.
    Specifically, healthy ENFJs really feed my soul to get me excited and soul-searching; I feel like they are my favorite sometimes, b/c they make me a better person. They have qualities which ignite things in me where I have not been able to find elsewhere. They feed my soul.

    ENFPs really get me goin' with feeling a little bit dazed but thrilled to just go along for the ride. I told an ENFP friend last night when he commented that he feels like his mind sometimes worked likes the movie Momento after not being able to remember something he journaled about literally last week (he said it was thrilling to read it! After a week! He's a smart guy, but terrible linear memory.) that that's one of the things I love about him.
    It makes me feel like such a linear-thinking sensor (not that that's an insult in any way) when I'm around him b/c he's so sort of spastic. But yet if he has resolve to do something, he will get it done. I'm an N yet his ENFP baffles me. And I am forever fascinated.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #46
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Well, all I've got to say is that I don't have any of the fatal character flaws that the OP mentions.

    Not everything can be attributed to type. Some people are flakes, regardless of their type. Some people are emotional wrecks, regardless of their type. Some people can't hold down a job, regardless of their type. I get the feeling that some people think they could predict what I'm going to eat for lunch tomorrow, simply because I'm an ENFP.

    P.S. I don't give a shit about offending people I don't care about.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #47
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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  8. #48
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    Fineline,

    I can't understand why you keep mentioning that ENFP and ENFJ are very different types. I know that are. But in this instance they share a certain behavior in the empirical sense (differing when it comes motives). I lay claim to nothing else.

    Also, I can testify that Economica has an almost negative interest in putting a negative spin on ENFx's, her ENFP boyfriend being a very good partner, and sticking with an ENFJ friend even when most of her close(r) friends deserted this ENFJ due to hypocrisy.

    As for the slander, allegedly turning a "minor" flaw into a big deal by calling it hypocrisy, well:

    Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, virtues and feelings that one does not truly possess.
    Lateralus: Sure you're not ENTP

  9. #49
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Fineline,

    I can't understand why you keep mentioning that ENFP and ENFJ are very different types. I know that are. But in this instance they share a certain behavior in the empirical sense (differing when it comes motives). I lay claim to nothing else.

    Also, I can testify that Economica has an almost negative interest in putting a negative spin on ENFx's, her ENFP boyfriend being a very good partner, and sticking with an ENFJ friend even when most of her close(r) friends deserted this ENFJ due to hypocrisy.

    As for the slander, allegedly turning a "minor" flaw into a big deal by calling it hypocrisy, well:



    Lateralus: Sure you're not ENTP
    Maybe I'm not getting it either because it really sounds like you're saying ENFs are naturally hypocritical, more so than other types. A hypocrite is a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs AND/OR a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

    Are you saying this is something ENFs do regularly? I'd sooner say nothing about my personal beliefs than deny them. Maybe you're dealing with some shady ENFs
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Fineline,

    I can't understand why you keep mentioning that ENFP and ENFJ are very different types. I know that are. But in this instance they share a certain behavior in the empirical sense (differing when it comes motives). I lay claim to nothing else.

    Also, I can testify that Economica has an almost negative interest in putting a negative spin on ENFx's, her ENFP boyfriend being a very good partner, and sticking with an ENFJ friend even when most of her close(r) friends deserted this ENFJ due to hypocrisy.

    As for the slander, allegedly turning a "minor" flaw into a big deal by calling it hypocrisy, well: [...]
    All right. One more message and then I really am done with this thread.

    I've raised a lot of objections and pointed out lots of alternate explanations for the issue at hand. You and Economica haven't addressed any of them.

    Ptgatsby raised a bunch of similar objections and clarifications of a more technical or MBTI-related nature for the issue. You and Economica haven't addressed any of them.

    Other people of a variety of different types have raised objections or drawn on their own experiences of ENFPs and ENFJs to disagree with you on the issues. You and Economica haven't addressed any of them.

    ENFPs and ENFJs themselves have posted and said that your descriptions of them are completely wrong. You and Economica haven't addressed any of them.

    The MBTI books flatly disagree with you. ENFPs and ENFJs are Idealists (using Keirsey's) designation, and they are routinely described as sympathetic, sincere, and empathetic. Thus, you two are using MBTI terms and concepts to come to a conclusion that is the exact opposite of how MBTI works. You and Economica haven't addressed any of the MBTI-related objections that have been raised.

    At this point, you and Economica seem to be insisting that you're right about ENFXs for the main reason that you're nice people and you like ENFXs. I'm guessing that your reasoning goes something like this: "We genuinely like ENFXs, and we would never say something so mean about them unless it was really true!"



    I don't think there's much point in me contributing to this thread anymore. We're all just talking past each other. You and Economica refuse to address any of the multitude of objections raised here. Meantime, as far as I'm concerned, your goodwill and good intentions don't insulate you from being mistaken. It still sounds to me that you're taking some relatively benign ENFX characteristic (diplomatic flexibility and reactivity to the situation at hand) and interpreting it as something much more sinister (deliberate intent to deceive the people around them for their own gain or comfort).

    I do indeed think that you and Economica are well-intentioned. I've crossed paths with Economica in particular over a period of time, and she has been a strong, thoughtful contributor in other threads. I don't doubt her basic good instincts. I just think she has a little myopia about how her boyfriend works. There's such a thing as being too close to the subject you're studying. "Familiarity breeds contempt," as they say.

    But as long as we're not dealing with the subject of ENFX motives, I look forward to encountering both of you in other threads and hearing your input on other subjects.

    FL

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