User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 75

Thread: ENFX Hypocrisy

  1. #31
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    So you aknowledge that they go with the feelings of the moment rather than their a priori oppinions as described in the OP but you oppose the rather negative labels I assign to this behavior. That's fine by me as long you confirm the empirical occurance
    Sure. Why not. And your position is fine with me as long as we do the following for every other person and personality type as well:

    1) Apply "rather negative" labels to their behavior,
    2) Nitpick their every action and characterize the personality type by the occasional shortcomings or petty rip-offs of any individuals of that type,
    3) And hold them to my standard of how they should ideally act in an ideal world. And beat up on them when they fall short of that standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Perhaps you are more of a fatalist than I because I wouldn't go as far as calling this behavior the very basis of their interactions with the world; in fact, if that was the case I'm not sure I'd let ENFxs get as close to me as I do. Instead I would say that it represents a character liability that ENFXs need to overcome - just as ENTPs need to overcome one-upmanship and learn the difference between the Devil's Advocate and the Socratic Gadfly amongst other things.
    I get your point that it's all about labels.

    I understand that ENTPs get kind of a bad rap on this message board. I gave Substitute a pretty good heaping of bad labels myself in a past thread (although in fairness to myself it was in a thread where he specifically asked how others saw ENTPs, and it was after he had taken a few sideswipes at INFPs along the way).

    But if you're going to put a morally negative label like "hypocrisy" on ENFX interactions, then it behooves you to put the appropriate disclaimers and qualifiers in the OP. (For example, "If ENTPs can be trashed as gadflies, then can ENFPs be trashed as hypocrites?" etc.) IOW, put the labels in the appropriate context, or choose less negative labels. Otherwise you'll get feedback like mine.

    FL (really taking off this time.)

  2. #32
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ERTP
    Posts
    454

    Default

    There's no need to be heated about this, all types have their own pathology.

    Jung on Fe:

    "All thinking that might disturb feeling is suppressed. It is considered possible for objects to become so important that constantly changing feeling states result in accordance with the changes in surroundings. The basic ego remains the same and is constantly at odds with these changing states. The thinking function, primarily unconscious in the extraverted feeling type, is infantile, archaic, and negative; when contradictory feeling states occur, the most negative thoughts released from the unconscious are directed toward the most valued objects of feeling."

  3. #33
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    There's no need to be heated about this, all types have their own pathology.

    Jung on Fe:

    "All thinking that might disturb feeling is suppressed. It is considered possible for objects to become so important that constantly changing feeling states result in accordance with the changes in surroundings. The basic ego remains the same and is constantly at odds with these changing states. The thinking function, primarily unconscious in the extraverted feeling type, is infantile, archaic, and negative; when contradictory feeling states occur, the most negative thoughts released from the unconscious are directed toward the most valued objects of feeling."
    It is pathological from your perspective because you use Ti, not Fe.

    Let's look at Ti for a moment, it has just as many negative aspects:

    Oriented to the subjective factor is experience which guides and determines judgment, the introverted thinker is observed to be more interested in producing new views than new facts. With a tendency to force facts into the shape of his private images, the introvert can fall prey to mystical thinking. Kant is offered as an example of the normal introverted thinking type, strongly influenced by ideas having a subjective foundation. This type is found to be often impractical not only neglecting the object, but defending against it unnecessarily. However lucid the inner structure of his thought, the introvert does not clearly understand how to communicate it to the world of reality. In personal relations he is described as taciturn, domineering and inconsiderate, appreciated only by his intimates. With more intense members of this type, convictions become more rigid, and they shut off outside influences completely. Up to a point, their thinking is positive and synthetic, producing ideas that reflect the primordial images; but when totally divorced from objective experience, the ideas become mythological and unintelligible to others.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ERTP
    Posts
    454

    Default

    No it is pathological ipso facto for an extrovert to socially prostitude himself in such a manner, thereby disassociating the ego from the external situation that he so naturally focuses on.

    I'm not saying that Ti is better at all. All types have their own pathology.

  5. #35
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    2,054

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    There's no need to be heated about this


    All right, Blackwater, you're on your own.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ERTP
    Posts
    454

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmm, and here I was thinking how ironic it was that an ENTP was complaining about fickleness
    not necessarily; you could say that I am one of the types susceptible to that kind of behavior myself but that I strove to overcome it and did

    ---

    Perhaps I should apologize; I originally opened this thread offering observations that I hoped would be challenged or to have the perspective therein contradicted or expanded. Instead, what seems to have happened is that people mistook the lack of OP-empathy as another prelude to T/F trench warfare. Too bad, really; I personally prefer the clinical approach
    Last edited by Blackwater; 08-16-2007 at 07:35 AM.

  7. #37
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sx
    Posts
    3,467

    Default

    I'd say such hypocrisy is very common among unhealthy ENFs, though tends to be rare among those who of them who are sound.

    Unhealthy ENFJs get absorbed by the external standards of the community and do all they can to meet them, in most cases it means pleasing those around them. Hence, if they have made a plea to one group, and later on it turns out that if they could win the favor of a larger community or more influential people, or whatever it takes to become more liked by breaking the previous promise they'd do it.

    So hence, the reason why they are fickle is because they do not have an internal standard to go by and the standards they aling with change.

    As for the ENFP, unlike the ENFJ, they dont have a clear-cut external standard to go by. So they can count on no more than fleeting hunches to make themselves feel good, and hence they must depend on the immediate approval of those receiving them for validation. So they'd be going on and on trying to please everyone they come across, as their need for approval is very high. Yet, unlike the ENFJs, as the ENFPs dont have a solid standard to go by, need for the approval to be renewed frequently as again, unlike the ENFJs, they can not keep focus on the people they've pleased in the past. As for the ENFP being fickle, they never really know what they want other than receiving emotional affirmation all the time. Since they need to be the center of attention (Ne-performer aspect, and Fi bent outwards) and lack judgment (no external judgment and Fi inaccessible) they need consistent admiration for others to uplift their self-image and will go at great length to obtain it. Perhaps even as far as going against many of their deeply held personal values. Moreover, they are also likely to be driven by desires as at this point they are ruled by their hunches and do not exercise proper judgment to truly figure out what they want. In situations like these, the ENFP would truly be out of control and it would be obvious to everyone around but the ENFP him/herself. And a salient reason why they cant put limitations on themselves is because they've disregarded reality in favor of their heart-warming fantasies and no matter what happens, they will discard concrete facts and logic so they can befool themselves into thinking that the world is exactly like the way they want for it to be.



    Once you shake some sense into them (with great difficulty because they likely will be too fickle to stay focused with you, even throughout the length of that one discussion, or likely wont be able to take anything seriously enough to even begin talking about that..or be too afraid of negative feelings/confrontations..as they need constant emotional reassurance..otherwise their identity would just wither away as they have no solid foundation to stand on), they will be sorry...very sorry..and you'd have to be downright heartless to not believe them..and then again..folks..its not that the enfp deceived you about their motives..they really were sorry..but they're just too fickle for that to mean anything at all..their feelings vanquished right the next day..and damn it..they do it again and you're back to square one trying to confront them...and they are so coarse and unreflective that they hardly understand what they did..and when they get 5 seconds of down time to think..it finally hits them..and what do you know..they again try to lighten up the conversation and sweet-talk their way out of it..anything..anything..just to make sure you dont show disappointment in them and they can carry on doing whatever their left foot commands...regardless of what effect it has on you and others they supposedly care for..right after they got done telling you how much you mean to them and how sincere they are about all of their values..



    So the case of a neurotic ENFP will seem even more insincere than that of the ENFJ despite that the latter is more externally focused and has a stronger feeling preferrence.

    As for healthy cases of both types, they generally tend to be sincere, yet very often are mistaken for being ingenuine because they are just too smooth for their own good. Especially the ENFP. And the ENFJ for trying too hard to please everyone, most would think they are just too good to be true. Though what vitiates the image of both is the light-hearted approach to life and an external focus, both of which tend to obfuscate the depth of feeling balanced individuals of these two types likely experience.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #38
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ERTP
    Posts
    454

    Default

    bluewing you win the prize for best best post. you are spot on in synch with my observations and - i will concede - describe the occurance in depth whereas I do so in broader/ more general terms

    the ENFP would truly be out of control and it would be obvious to everyone around but the ENFP him/herself.
    without exaggering I can testify that most people actually do not. perhaps we are blessed with a special NTP perspective on this, but I positively know from personal experience that neigther INTJs, nor INFJs whose oppions I normally respect have been able to connect with me when I offered these observations. one even reacted by calling me out-of-touch with reality, rather than adressing the problem at all.

    I almost completely agree with your assertions regarding the motivation of the ENFJ and ENFP respectively which is also why I said that the "accusations" put forwards in my posts were more unfair to the ENFP than the ENFJ but philosophically it is the problem of Dogville over again; the ENFP being the dog.

    the MBTI litterature already touches on many of the points you present but is generally to positive and ficke (sic!) in its describtions, after all - they have a product to sell.

    one point really struck me personally:

    Once you shake some sense into them (with great difficulty because they likely will be too fickle to stay focused with you, even throughout the length of that one discussion, or likely wont be able to take anything seriously enough to even begin talking about that..or be too afraid of negative feelings/confrontations..as they need constant emotional reassurance..otherwise their identity would just wither away as they have no solid foundation to stand on), they will be sorry...very sorry..and you'd have to be downright heartless to not believe them..and then again..folks..its not that the enfp deceived you about their motives..they really were sorry..but they're just too fickle for that to mean anything at all..their feelings vanquished right the next day..and damn it..they do it again and you're back to square one trying to confront them...
    because that's exactly what happned between me and one of my ENFP friends. I told him the same thing 5-10 times over only now is he beginning to understand. I (an E - mind you) felt like the most patient person in the world, and at one point I even toyed with the idea of overreacting aggressively in order to shake some sense into his skull. but he is thankfully beginning to come around, actually "getting it".

  9. #39
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    2,054

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    bluewing you win the prize for best best post.
    I concur.

    BlueWing, may I ask to what extent you base your posts on personal experience and to what extent they are founded in theorizing alone? I seem to recall that you rate crazily high on attachment-style avoidance, but a post like this one just seems too realistic for pure armchair deduction.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Shimpei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISFJ
    Enneagram
    9
    Socionics
    ISFx
    Posts
    339

    Default

    My ex who's ENFJ admitted to me once that he's a big hypocrite. I had to agree with him. He had been like this (deceiving others and himself in the church) for years.

Similar Threads

  1. What's wrong with hypocrisy?
    By Athenian200 in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 01-31-2009, 02:15 PM
  2. Conservative hypocrisy brought to you by The Daily Show.
    By Didums in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 263
    Last Post: 10-06-2008, 07:46 PM
  3. [MBTItm] ENFx shadow?
    By alcea rosea in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 09-03-2008, 10:27 AM
  4. Am I really ENFx?
    By alcea rosea in forum What's my Type?
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 12-18-2007, 01:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO