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Thread: ENFX Hypocrisy

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    ptgatsby and FineLine, you really don't recognize this as-yet-not-properly-named problem area for ENFXs - not even as translated by me?
    In my earlier post I recognized how NTs might take a dim view of ENFXs who use values, feeling, and social norms as organizational tools. But I also explained that I personally see ENFXs accomplishing that task openly, honestly and toward good ends. IOW, personally I think the OP puts far too negative a spin on ENFXs by labeling them hypocrites.

    If it will make you feel any better, I'm willing to acknowledge that every personality type has its nickle-and-dime rip-offs. None of us keeps 100 percent true to our most positive aspects. There's a lot of leeway for individual characteristics to shade over into negative characteristics when exhibited in real life, with real-life stresses and dramas.

    But FWIW, I'm probably older than most posters and I routinely see how all the personality types work themselves out later in life. Young people within any personality type tend to still be getting their act together. Older people, by contrast, will have smoothed off the rough edges and gotten their routine down pat.

    And ENFJs, in fact, tend to be pretty delightful people as they get older (IMO, of course). As I mentioned earlier, I have a somewhat more mixed opinion of ENFPs. But I count a couple of them as friends as well, and I find it easy enough to discount their quirks and enjoy their ample positive qualities.

    FL

  2. #22
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I can testify that fickleness is one ENTP problem area that Blackwater has left behind.
    Maybe... are we talking about a specific ENFx, or are we generalising millions of people under these classifications - is it any fairer, or less correct, to say that ENTPs are fickle people? It is either a typical (and probable) condition in a gigantic amount of people, which makes it obvious, or we are forering into the belief by broadening the interpretation until it fits.

    Is it any more or less accurate than associating project drifting/enthusiasm fickleness in ENTPs to the people drifting/lack of confrontation/getting along enthusiasm from ENFPs?

    ptgatsby and FineLine, you really don't recognize this as-yet-not-properly-named problem area for ENFXs - not even as translated by me?
    As described, no, I don't. My view is that;

    - I have never seen this as a significant failing in ENFs, although I have only worked with a couple and know a couple outside of that.

    - I have never seen this brought up outside of those I do know (or within), which differs from a lot of other typical traits.

    - The definition seems to be a reinterpretation of events that could flow to other conclusions.

    - I also don't think it can be generalised to ENFs, since the J/P trait is behaviourally important, and in particular, the -NFP traits seem dominant in what is being talked about (--Fp bending and lack of assertion in the example, and a -N-P trait in regards to the fleeting behaviour), not a type in particular. Because there is no specific type being measured, the events are easily reinterpreted to shift between the J/P divide as a way to hide conflicting data - ie: justify belief rather than conclude from data.

  3. #23
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    I just had to log in again to write this:

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    In my earlier post I recognized how NTs might take a dim view of ENFXs who use values, feeling, and social norms as organizational tools. But I also explained that I personally see ENFXs accomplishing that task openly, honestly and toward good ends. IOW, personally I think the OP puts far too negative a spin on ENFXs by labeling them hypocrites.

    (...)

    And ENFJs, in fact, tend to be pretty delightful people as they get older (IMO, of course). As I mentioned earlier, I have a somewhat more mixed opinion of ENFPs. But I count a couple of them as friends as well, and I find it easy enough to discount their quirks and enjoy their ample positive qualities.
    FineLine, I know Blackwater likes ENFXs very much, as do I. He simply finds that practically all the ones he knows suffer from this problem, and in the spirit of my INXJ thread (where the majority did, in fact, recognize closed-minded certitude as a ubiquitous problem area for INTJs at least) he brought it up here to explore it. If no one else recognizes it, that's perfectly legitimate, but... There is some T/F miscommunication here that I won't attempt to put my finger on now. (Jennifer, you are sorely missed.)

    ---

    Okay, now I really mean it: Goodnight!

  4. #24
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    From what I've seen, some of it could just be the ENFX making decisions or promises in a certain moment based on an emotion, and then changing their statements later, when their emotions change. They may feel what they say when they say it, but their feelings can be a bit fickle of a basis for their word.
    We are not poets
    We have no right to make amendments

  5. #25
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Today, when I was coming back from lunch my coworker and I bumped into some other co-worker's. We chatted a for a less than a minute when a male coworker whom nobody likes stopped and chatted with us.

    This guy is slimy and slick, very charming and funny but it's obvious that he shouldn't be trusted. He's dated several women at my job at once. He made a joke and I was the only that laughed. I didn't think it was funny I just laughed because my other coworker's were giving him the cold shoulder. I don't blame them, he's not a nice person in my opinion.

    As soon as it was over, I was thinking to myself, why did you laugh? It wasn't funny. When I think about most of my interactions with this guy, I know I give a different impression than what I feel. I don't like him, have never liked him, but he would never guess it, or rather I'd go to great lengths to hide my true feelings for him.

    Honestly I don't care whether he likes me or not, he doesn't take add one minute to my day and I don't have to work with him directly. It's just this thing I do with people, it's hard for me to show disgust to them, even though I don't like them. I don't know if this is what you were asking for, but it's truth about myself.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    [...] in the spirit of my INXJ thread (where the majority did, in fact, recognize closed-minded certitude as a ubiquitous problem area for INTJs at least) [...]
    I probably should have read the OP and the thread before chiming in. I don't see certitude as a "problem area" in a healthy INXJ. To me, it's just a "quirk." It's worth chatting about INTJ certitude about as a "marker" for INXJs, and it's fun to speculate about its origins. But it's hardly a "problem" in my experience.

    I have an INTJ coworker, and we have some competing interests in our respective jobs. Due to his certitude in the rectitude of his own opinion, I can't count on him to automatically recognize and look out for my interests. He doesn't pick things up through osmosis like some other types might. But that just means I have to sit down and make my case. And it only takes 10 words with him. INTJs are so freaking quick to pick up the gist. It's great. If I've got a decent reason at all for what I want, he'll go along with it. The main thing is not to bore him with a long, drawn-out explanation.

    There is some T/F miscommunication here that I won't attempt to put my finger on now.
    I tend to go with the holistic overview. Sure, what the hell, it's fun to extract some particular quirk and gossip about it and badmouth it. But if I get the sense that the personality type as a whole is being trashed, then I back up a few steps and picture a coworker or a friend of that type and see the person as a whole.

    INTJs aren't defined by their certitude. INTJs are magnificent creatures, fascinating and brilliant; any quibbles about their "certitude" are dwarfed by the attraction of that high-octane brain of theirs. On the other hand, trashing how ENFXs interact with people cuts a little deeper, because it goes to the core of their particular personality type and who they are. In many ways, their interactions with the people around them define who they are. It doesn't seem right to argue that the very basis of their interactions with the world is somehow illegitimate or routinely leads to illegitimate results. My ENFJ and ENFP acquaintances are sharp, interesting, honest people. They work hard to improve the world around themselves. They function differently from me, and sometimes I have to adjust my own attitude a bit to accommodate them, but I don't see their interactions with me as illegitimate in any way.

    Okay, now I really mean it: Goodnight!
    Me too. Gotta go pick up the car at the shop. Good discussion!

    FL
    Last edited by RDF; 08-14-2007 at 09:29 PM. Reason: Tightening up the message.

  7. #27
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    This will be quicker and more condensed than I'd like since I'm off to work (and since I actually have to work today ).

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I tend to go with the holistic overview. Sure, what the hell, it's fun to extract some particular quirk and gossip about it and badmouth it. But if I get the sense that the personality type as a whole is being trashed, then I back up a few steps and picture a coworker or a friend of that type and see the person as a whole.
    What is it that makes you get that sense? I ask not in order to challenge you, but in order to learn.

    I assure you that Blackwater and I very much share your bottom-line appreciation of ENFXs (and INTJs, though I hate to admit it here ). Multiple friendships is how we got our empirical data in the first place. It is not our intention to point fingers or to indirectly flaunt our own NT toughness, merely to explore this problem area in order to understand and perhaps contribute to the personal development of ENFXs we are close to.

    But perhaps the issue is not so much that you read malicious intent into the thread(s) as that you do not recognize that types can have problem areas that they should work on (as opposed to mere quirks)...?

    I probably should have read the OP and the thread before chiming in. I don't see certitude as a "problem area" in a healthy INXJ. To me, it's just a "quirk." It's worth chatting about INTJ certitude about as a "marker" for INXJs, and it's fun to speculate about its origins. But it's hardly a "problem" in my experience.
    Here we differ. In my experience, CC can lead to bitter unhappiness for an INTJ. Also, CC can be highly disruptive on a message board like this one. (Just ask MacGuffin. ) Both are good reasons not to gloss over the behavior.

    I leave it to Blackwater to fill in the negative consequences of the ENFX behavior he has identified.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    I tend to go with the holistic overview. Sure, what the hell, it's fun to extract some particular quirk and gossip about it and badmouth it. But if I get the sense that the personality type as a whole is being trashed, then I back up a few steps and picture a coworker or a friend of that type and see the person as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    What is it that makes you get that sense? I ask not in order to challenge you, but in order to learn.
    The answer to your question was in the next paragraph of that message. I'll quote it again; I edited my response after first posting the message, and you might have missed the final version.

    In message 23 you said Blackwater created this thread about ENFXs "in the spirit of" your own INXJ thread. I wanted to point out the difference that I see in the two threads and the two "problem areas" of the relative types, to explain a possible source of the "T/F miscommunication" that you mentioned:

    [...] But if I get the sense that the personality type as a whole is being trashed, then I back up a few steps and picture a coworker or a friend of that type and see the person as a whole.

    INTJs aren't defined by their certitude. INTJs are magnificent creatures, fascinating and brilliant; any quibbles about their "certitude" are dwarfed by the attraction of that high-octane brain of theirs. On the other hand, trashing how ENFXs interact with people cuts a little deeper, because it goes to the core of their particular personality type and who they are. In many ways, their interactions with the people around them define who they are. It doesn't seem right to argue that the very basis of their interactions with the world is somehow illegitimate or routinely leads to illegitimate results.[...]
    IOW, a thread such as this one about ENFXs gets at a key issue about the whole MBTI system: Do all personality types have merit (in their own way), or can it be said that some personality types are objectively good while others are objectively bad or fatally flawed in terms of their contribution to the world?

    This thread seems to indicate that ENFX interactions with the world are routinely illegitimate; that makes me step back a bit and think hard. I don't mind someone raising the question of ENFX "hypocrisy"; I'm just explaining why I can't be budged from my position on this issue: In real life, I honestly don't feel that my interactions with ENFPs and ENFJs to be routinely tainted with "hypocrisy" on their part.

    Oh well, that's my last word on this matter. I have a busy day and a busy (rest of the) week ahead. In any case, ENFPs and ENFJs can defend themselves if they wish. I just thought I would contribute my own observations on the subject of this thread, as an impartial observer.

    FL

  9. #29
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Thank-you FineLine.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

  10. #30
    Senior Member Blackwater's Avatar
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    On the other hand, trashing how ENFXs interact with people cuts a little deeper, because it goes to the core of their particular personality type and who they are. In many ways, their interactions with the people around them define who they are. It doesn't seem right to argue that the very basis of their interactions with the world is somehow illegitimate or routinely leads to illegitimate results.
    So you aknowledge that they go with the feelings of the moment rather than their a priori oppinions as described in the OP but you oppose the rather negative labels I assign to this behavior. That's fine by me as long you confirm the empirical occurance

    Perhaps you are more of a fatalist than I because I wouldn't go as far as calling this behavior the very basis of their interactions with the world; in fact, if that was the case I'm not sure I'd let ENFxs get as close to me as I do. Instead I would say that it represents a character liability that ENFXs need to overcome - just as ENTPs need to overcome one-upmanship and learn the difference between the Devil's Advocate and the Socratic Gadfly amongst other things.

    Another real life example, this time from an ENFJ:

    There this ENFJ who makes occasional appearances in my life. Very accomodating and charming, artful, (once) a psysical knockout, medium to high intelligence. She has such an easy time tuning into what people want from her that she's constantly commiting herself to promises which she can't/won't follow through. Specifically, she promised me, and my closest friends that she'd dump her guilt-manipulating boyfriend, only to stay with him for 4 years. Everybody knew it was wrong, yet (my) rational observations failed to convince anyone of her insufficiency, probably in part because of her social charms.

    Another ENFJ, a good friend:

    Has written a book on mordern philosophy (kuhn, popper etc.). I know his oppinions on the subject through and through and yet I have often seen him relinquish a standpoint in favor of accomodation, rather than sticking with his superior arguments, he'll end up saying the opposite of what he thinks in the present situation (although he won't actually change opinion accordinly). No one is served by this kind of behavior, really.

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