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Thread: ENFX Hypocrisy

  1. #11
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    They are just getting caught up in the moment and saying what comes to mind, syncing with the spirit of the environment.
    I've seen that, sometimes. It can make it a bit more difficult for me to trust them, when I can't determine if they're committed to what they're saying or not.
    We are not poets
    We have no right to make amendments

  2. #12
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    There's a difference between not saying what you think and saying the opposite of what you think/ or being overly susceptible to the feelings of fleeting moments.
    Well, other than these two things having nothing to do with eachother, I've never said the opposite of what I actually think or believe if I wasn't being sarcastic.

    And well, being susceptible to the feelings and emotions of a fleeting moment doesn't really have anything at all to do with that.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  3. #13
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Well, other than these two things having nothing to do with eachother, I've never said the opposite of what I actually think or believe if I wasn't being sarcastic.

    And well, being susceptible to the feelings and emotions of a fleeting moment doesn't really have anything at all to do with that.
    The two would relate if the 'feeling of the moment' happened to involve doing something which does directly contradict something you personally believe in. I'm having trouble imagining someone doing this but I'm sure it happens.

    Example: ENFP 'A' is making a grocery store run with friend 'B' who decides it's no big deal to steal a container of steak spices by putting them inside his jacket. The two of them are getting supplies together for a big steak dinner with other friends and they're in a bit of a hurry. 'A' wholeheartedly despises stealing or dishonesty in any form but saw 'B' grab the container and stuff it in his jacket. They're at the checkout counter. 'A' has a dilemma:
    1. Convince 'B' to put it on the conveyer belt quietly, or if he doesn't, raise hell with the cashier (getting his friend in trouble) or
    2. Look the other direction and hope for the best

    Which might you do?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    [...] Do ENFXs commonly have problems with sincerity and/ or hypocrisy?

    The premise for the question being that an EN will have an easy time tuning into what people want while the F will accommodate. Being more recognizable in ENFPs I have yet to experience an ENFJ who wasn't "strategically insincere" (i.e. a hypocrite to some degree) and the scary thing is that the ENFJ is all the more Machiavellian. [...]
    I have ENFJ friends. As an INFP (and a fellow Dominant F), I get what ENFJs are doing and feel that it is legitimate.

    Dominant Fe types (ENFJ and ESFJ) seek the value and worth of others and then work to organize that value in social settings. They negotiate using values, feelings, and social norms as their currency of choice. NTs may not see the benefit of that exercise (or may only see it in negative terms: hypocrisy). But man is a social animal, and Dominant Fe types are prized assets in social settings or workplace roles like a team facilitator or Human Resources.

    For comparison: Dominant Te types (ENTJ and ESTJ) process and organize the world around them according to principles (ENTJ) and facts (ESTJ). If they are in charge of soldiers on a battlefield or workers in a factory, then they may have to manipulate the fates of their subordinates rather cold-heartedly to meet the changing demands of the factory or the battlefield. NFs may not see the benefit of layoffs and battlefield casualties or may find those exercises duplicitous and demeaning. But man is also a production or battlefield resource at times, and the appropriate rules apply.

    I see Dominant Fe and Dominant Te doing roughly the same thing (engaging in organization of their environment in one way or another) but just using different tools. It wouldn't occur to me to call either one hypocritical. They are just using their organizing skills toward a goal that is usually fairly obvious and straightforward (if you look at the world from their point of view, anyway).

    The OP also asked about ENFPs. To me, ENFPs are a bit different. They operate chiefly from Dominant Ne. As a Dominant F, I sometimes see ENFPs as a bit nuts myself. I don't always understand their priorities. But I wouldn't consider ENFPs hypocrites. They just prioritize differently from me. (Dominant Ne seems to be more about processing and transforming.) Once I observe them long enough and figure out their priorities (discover the method to their madness), then they become at least predictable if not necessarily understandable. In any case, there's no particular reason to label them hypocrites (as a defining characteristic of their personality type, anyway) any more than any other type that has different priorities from mine.

    FL

  5. #15
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirilis View Post
    The two would relate if the 'feeling of the moment' happened to involve doing something which does directly contradict something you personally believe in. I'm having trouble imagining someone doing this but I'm sure it happens.

    Example: ENFP 'A' is making a grocery store run with friend 'B' who decides it's no big deal to steal a container of steak spices by putting them inside his jacket. The two of them are getting supplies together for a big steak dinner with other friends and they're in a bit of a hurry. 'A' wholeheartedly despises stealing or dishonesty in any form but saw 'B' grab the container and stuff it in his jacket. They're at the checkout counter. 'A' has a dilemma:
    1. Convince 'B' to put it on the conveyer belt quietly, or if he doesn't, raise hell with the cashier (getting his friend in trouble) or
    2. Look the other direction and hope for the best

    Which might you do?
    That's not hypocrisy, it's a moral dillemma. He despises stealing, but obviously despises the thought of getting his friend in trouble.

    Personally, I would try to convince my friend to pay for it, and if he wouldn't, I would tell him I'd pay for it, but if he insisted on stealing it, I'd be very disappointed, but I'd hope he didn't get in trouble.

    There seems to be a big judgement among NT's towards NF's that to us, living in the moment means letting the moment take control, instead of taking control of the moment. I can tell you immediately that with this NFJ at least, this is the furthest thing from the truth.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  6. #16
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    This isn't my thread, but I am friends with Blackwater IRL and I think I know where he's coming from.

    Of course, people are allowed (welcome ) to update their opinions, and diplomacy is indeed a trait to be treasured, but there is a good example in post #10 of an ENFX whose stand was irredeemably fickle. Do the rest of you never experience ENFXs being ineffective at best and pitiful at worst in situations when they cannot please all people at once (including staying true to themselves)?

    In my experience, ENFPs and ENFJs are masters at distracting from and smoothtalking their way out of such dilemmas, respectively. But when push really comes to shove, does the lack of a backbone turn out to be a problem area for ENFXs (much like how I claimed closed-minded certitude is one for INXJs)?

    ---

    Incidentally, I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective. If someone wants to start a substantial thread about ENTP weaknesses, especially ones they find that Blackwater suffers from, I'm sure that he will be both delighted and receptive.

  7. #17
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Incidentally, I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective. If someone wants to start a substantial thread about ENTP weaknesses, especially ones they find that Blackwater suffers from, I'm sure that he will be both delighted and receptive.
    Hmm, and here I was thinking how ironic it was that an ENTP was complaining about fickleness It's all about perspective.

    That's something to keep in mind. There is very little difference between an ENTP and an ENFP, except that ENFPs will generally get along with people better. The example given was most likely about bending under pressure when faced with it... something that everyone will do, although, in theory, Fs will do it more.

    INTPs fickleness with not finishing things to an ESTJs fickleness for what rule to follow, or an ESFP's fickleness with who they like... Or an ENTP's fickleness with what project they will focus on. All perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    This isn't my thread, but I am friends with Blackwater IRL and I think I know where he's coming from.

    Of course, people are allowed (welcome ) to update their opinions, and diplomacy is indeed a trait to be treasured, but there is a good example in post #10 of an ENFX whose stand was irredeemably fickle. Do the rest of you never experience ENFXs being ineffective at best and pitiful at worst in situations when they cannot please all people at once (including staying true to themselves)?

    In my experience, ENFPs and ENFJs are masters at distracting from and smoothtalking their way out of such dilemmas, respectively. But when push really comes to shove, does the lack of a backbone turn out to be a problem area for ENFXs (much like how I claimed closed-minded certitude is one for INXJs)?

    ---

    Incidentally, I know the interest behind the query is in constructively discussing the problem areas of the various types with personal development as the objective. If someone wants to start a substantial thread about ENTP weaknesses, especially ones they find that Blackwater suffers from, I'm sure that he will be both delighted and receptive.
    I've given both ENTPs and INTJs a hard time for their negative qualities in the past. But that was in the context (at least in my mind) of investigating a single facet or an extreme of their nature. Or counterpunching from a put-down of INFPs. In the recent thread about INTJs, I presented a broad neutral category (pattern-seeking), then extended the example out to magical thinking and personality disorders at the extreme. At least that's what I intended. I certainly didn't mean to boil all INTJs down to nothing but a personality disorder or a mental illness.

    The OP for this thread, on the other hand, appeared to consider hypocrisy as a defining characteristic of ENFXs. For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post

    Do ENFXs commonly have problems with sincerity and/ or hypocrisy?

    [...]

    In my experience the type needn't go bad at all to do this, it's just second nature.

    [...]

    Which, again, has been exercised by every single ENFP I've known.

    [...]

    ENFXs usually wallow in Fundamental Attribution Error
    Maybe I'm reading it wrong; but in that case the OP could perhaps have done a better job of distinguishing and separating out the exception or the extreme case from the basic nature of a healthy, normal ENFJ or ENFP.

    FL

  9. #19
    Senior Membrane spirilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    There seems to be a big judgement among NT's towards NF's that to us, living in the moment means letting the moment take control, instead of taking control of the moment. I can tell you immediately that with this NFJ at least, this is the furthest thing from the truth.
    Hm, you make a good distinction there. I've personally seen ENFPs exhibit far more "letting the moment control them" behavior than the other way around, however. I really think that is a distinction between the P and J-types -- J-types may be predisposed to take control of the moment, while P-types may seem to respond to the moment as it controls them. I have some examples but would rather not share them in public. However most of them are ENFP examples; I have very little experience with ENFJs in person...

  10. #20
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Hmm, and here I was thinking how ironic it was that an ENTP was complaining about fickleness It's all about perspective.
    I can testify that fickleness is one ENTP problem area that Blackwater has left behind.

    ptgatsby and FineLine, you really don't recognize this as-yet-not-properly-named problem area for ENFXs - not even as translated by me?

    I'm off to bed, goodnight everyone.

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