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  1. #51
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    I can rightly agree it is easier when you use the correct terms, but then again their are some people who can't agree because they don't think Keirsey's idea is correct to begin with or perhaps they just see no strength in this type of alignment. I only expected it to be accurate from my experiences with all the personalities, however limited, but my analysis of this isn't bad. Thanks for some of that clarification Eric, but I doubt my ability to get to the heart of this theory is expressive enough.

  2. #52
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    I'd say the base pairs for what you're doing would be these, which match in Interaction Style and (for the most part) cognitive function:

    Completely ego-compatible; preferred/nonpreferred blocks reversed:

    INFJ-ISTP (both Chart the Course, Motive focused)
    ENFJ-ESTP (Both In Charge, Motive focused)
    ESFJ-ENTP (Both Get Things Going, Structure focused)
    ISFJ-INTP (Both Behind the Scenes, Structure focused)

    Judgment-compatible only; same spine (1/4) or arm(2/3), same interaction Style, same Structure/Motive:

    ESFP-ENFP
    ISFP-INFP
    ESTJ-ENTJ
    ISTJ-INTJ

    In all of these cases, instead of using Cooperative/Pragmatic, we use the cross factor of the conative temperaments, Structure/Motive (which pairs NT with SJ and NF with SP, and is the "mirror" of directing/informing). So you not only have three factors in common (I/E, D/Inf, Str/M) like your idea, but the first four are very close cognitively, and the last four are compatible in their decision-making processes. (You can't simply reverse the ego-compatible blocks with those, because Fi and Te are in the primary range, and are very significant in the D/Inf and Str/M factors, and you'll end up with different Interaction Styles, and very different surface behavior. Like ENFP-ESTJ. You'd gain cooperative/pragmatic back, and maintain I/E, but lose the other two factors which deal in responsiveness and are thus rather important).

    So these would be the best S/N "counterparts"; even better than simply changing S/N and making pairs with the other three letters the same for all of them.
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  3. #53
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    Cooperative/Pragmatic seems like the best thing to compare.

  4. #54
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    Why do you think so?
    ISTJ and INFJ only have in common being Melancholic on the surface social level, in addition to cooperative. Cognitively, they are totally in each other's shadow, and hence nearly opposite. I guess, since I suggest that I/E and cooperative/pragmatic are both forms of "expressiveness", then they will be similar in how much they express themselves to others, which is the first thing you generally see in a person. However, what they are expressing will be in many ways very different. In APS, we point out that expressiveness is what we say we want, while responsiveness is what we really want.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Why do you think so?
    ISTJ and INFJ only have in common being Melancholic on the surface social level, in addition to cooperative. Cognitively, they are totally in each other's shadow, and hence nearly opposite. I guess, since I suggest that I/E and cooperative/pragmatic are both forms of "expressiveness", then they will be similar in how much they express themselves to others, which is the first thing you generally see in a person. However, what they are expressing will be in many ways very different. In APS, we point out that expressiveness is what we say we want, while responsiveness is what we really want.
    Wouldn't this "expressiveness" be the common point of look-a-like types? INFJ and ISTJ are pretty much opposites in function, but their temperament is almost exact. The only difference is that one is phlegmatic, but that is still Cooperative.

    Technically ISFJ and INFJ are reversible in temperament mel-phleg, phleg-mel. However phleg overtakes the ISFJs appearance where phleg of INFJ stands for idealism. So there is actually more temperament they have common that is in a different form rather than an alike form.

    INFJ and ISTJ have expressiveness in common which stands for what they "say," but is it usually common because of this for them to act similarly (towards a specific situation, or in a general sense?) Situational reflects extroversion, which also reflects Sanguine and Choleric. Generality seems to reflect introversion, or Phlegmatic and Melancholic. If one is an idealist, then you would expect one to act phlegmatic, however since they are mainly melancholic, then much of this phlegmatic temperament is not seen because it is "responsiveness." So what is seen is that they are Melancholic and Cooperative. Is this not significant?

  6. #56
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    I think its a good model, but you really have to stay away from any analysis besides look-a-likes on the surface. ESFP and ENTP ranting together in a chatroom, everybody is gonna say, yeah they are pretty much alike. Because the esfp I am talking about and me, we have the pretty same way of activating those poor little lazy chatters .

    When my INFJ and my best friend ISTJ firstly met, it was pretty much the same. They instantly talked to each other and provoked each other and you couldnt distinguish which one was better at it. I stepped in eventually because I saw the fight for the death coming, at least it didnt seemed someone will give in in the conversation in the next 10 hours

    Yea I like your system, it bears a truth. But you need to limit it to lukewarm appearances of the types in society; every attempt of introspection will make the model explode because personally the INFJ and the ISTJ talked about, differ like heaven / hell But you know that, yourself
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemons View Post
    Wouldn't this "expressiveness" be the common point of look-a-like types? INFJ and ISTJ are pretty much opposites in function, but their temperament is almost exact. The only difference is that one is phlegmatic, but that is still Cooperative.

    Technically ISFJ and INFJ are reversible in temperament mel-phleg, phleg-mel. However phleg overtakes the ISFJs appearance where phleg of INFJ stands for idealism. So there is actually more temperament they have common that is in a different form rather than an alike form.

    INFJ and ISTJ have expressiveness in common which stands for what they "say," but is it usually common because of this for them to act similarly (towards a specific situation, or in a general sense?) Situational reflects extroversion, which also reflects Sanguine and Choleric. Generality seems to reflect introversion, or Phlegmatic and Melancholic. If one is an idealist, then you would expect one to act phlegmatic, however since they are mainly melancholic, then much of this phlegmatic temperament is not seen because it is "responsiveness." So what is seen is that they are Melancholic and Cooperative. Is this not significant?
    I guess you're right. I don't know many INFJ's in person, apparently (though there are a lot of people whose temperament from either system I wonder about, and haven't had the opportunity for them to be tested in either).
    I do know one definite INFJ, (tested with the official MBTI at her job). On the surface, she looks like the other Melancholy women in our circle, who are ISTJ. Basically in bad moods and critical of people a lot of times. Yet there is something different that is not really that common among our friends (heavily SJ). She doesn't seem to be as independent as the other Melancholies. So it's probably a different Control. She checks with others when making important decisions. My wife and I were saying, she's probably Melancholy-Supine. (She actually filled out the APS, but did not pay to have it processed yet, and now she's moved away). That would also fit in with NF, and the closest fitting Control range in FIRO is called "the Checker". She's also not as logically-oriented as the others. And I do get the same vibes I have gotten from Ni types, though I can't put my finger on why, or think of any positive uses of it from her (my wife says she's always predicting things about people, but it's always negative though. From what I've seen, Ni communication tends to have a natural appearance of "snarkiness" to me, which might be more of a shadow reaction on my part. Wilhemina Slater, the ENTJ villainness on Ugly Betty is the perennial example I think of).

    So it seems that yes, on the surface, the INFJ is very similar to the ISTJ. Not very fast to take action (which would be the Cooperativeness shared with the SJ's), yet when you know the person, you see the need for more input from others (which would perhaps indirectly tie in with the NF's Motive focus). But you have to be able to get that close to them in the first place, to see that. The Interaction area would determine "Who is IN or OUT of the relationship" and then conation would determine "Who makes the DECISIONS for the relationship".

    I would still think the ISTP would be closer to the INFJ, but then that type is pragmatic, and more physically oriented than even the SJ's, and thus more different on the surface; and you want strictly, surface behavior. So perhaps the Si and Ni types will look similar in that respect. So, OK, you've got a point there.
    But it seems very few people in the theory of personality are concerned strictly with the surface. We generally want to go to the root of personality.
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  8. #58
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    I might have aquired a bias because I've been reading Keirsey, but I'm going to have to take the unpopular position of agreeing with the original post. I relate much easier to ISFJs than to ISFP.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemons View Post
    INTJ-ISTP (need definition) Melancholic Pragmatic (both have Chart the Course Interaction Styles)
    INFJ-ISTJ (need definition) Melancholic Cooperative (both have Chart the Course Interaction Styles)
    INTP-ISFP (need definition) Phlegmatic Pragmatic (both have Behind the Scenes Interaction Styles)
    INFP-ISFJ (need definition) Phlegmatic Cooperative (both have Behind the Scenes Interaction Styles)
    ENTJ-ESTP (need definition) Choleric Pragmatic (both have In Charge Interaction Styles)
    ENFJ-ESTJ (need definition) Choleric Cooperative (both have In Charge Interaction Styles)
    ENTP-ESFP (need definition) Sanguine Pragmatic (both have Get Things Going Interaction Styles)
    ENFP-ESFJ (need definition) Sanguine Cooperative (both have Get Things Going Interaction Styles)
    Good information Lemons and they coincide with Berens Interaction Styles. The information you provide can be corroborated at the bottom left of this page, if that has not already been mentioned.

  10. #60
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    Thanks. I previously looked at that website briefly but haven't seen their organization of the temperaments, so I am looking at them now.

    I think Keirsey has a lot of good points in these groupings, especially since he tactfully placed similarities for each group. Since we have the knowledge of which personalities are which temperament, primarily, it only seemed logical to progress to a theory such as this, moods and interaction, to provide some idea for which personalities look alike. If anyone has a better name for this combination please feel free to give it up. So far it goes something like "on the surface look-a-likes." I got very similar impressions from each personality in each pair and I assumed there was something I had overlooked. Just the words cooperative and pragmatic rang a bell towards a temperament that is seen on a surface level, however briefly seen but still accurately seen.

    I can't say Structure vs Motive is a more accurate determiner for look-a-like, however it should be analyzed for what it offers, "where the focus is," and that paired with temperament. It could be said at first Coop/Prag pairs look a like, soon after you see similarities in Struct/Mot pairs.

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