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  1. #21
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    I wasnt typing him NFP, that was a generic example.

    Also, I've seen you under stress be cold and rigid in the face of a difficult situation, so you can see what I mean if you think about it..

    -Geoff

    PS you do look a little as if you have english ancestry too I would say... despite what he might have thought....

    Yes I can see what you mean, I know I do it too, I wouldn't be able to maintain that shadow self for 8yrs though, which is all I meant, let alone through his childhood too.

    And you are still the only person to see the English in me lol


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Be careful about generalised stereotypes. For example, ISFJs make up over 60-70% of the nursing population, an incredible outstripping of any other type. However, saying that all ISFJs are/should be nurses isn't accurate.

    It's the same thing with ISTJs. Just because policemen (as an example, I don't know the numbers) are more likely to to be ISTJs doesn't mean that they have to be... to the degree that it would be unlikely than an ISTJ would be a policeman, although it is likely that a policeman is an ISTJ.

    Also, neuroticism is a serious barrier to personal relationships, job stability and performance. Unless one is in a career that required quick and extreme reactions, the ST and neuroticism components would be very difficult to do well with.
    The bum comment wasn't meant to be applied to all p's , just for him, but I could see how it came across as a generalised comment about all P's because of the context I used it in......ooops (disorganised, lazy etc, it is kind of true don't you think? the more P, the more disorganised?) (still learning)

    But thanks for that, you laid it out in a way I am better able to understand, I love the way you put things, it's so easy to get.


    The likelyhood of him being an N is already lower than 1/3, followed by some S tendencies (the concrete book examples, rather like my data drive).

    I went with J because he has a really hard time integrating new information into his worldview - this is largely a J problem. The paranoid aspects are also J more than P.
    Yes, this was what made me give him the J first off, it was only because I began thinking about his disorganisation, and the fact that I was the one who was forced to be more proactive during the marriage that made me become unsure again.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  2. #22
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    An NFP under THAT amount of stress -- to be driven so FAR into the extreme shadow functions for such a long time -- just could NOT handle it for as long as her ex seems to have. They literally would have a breakdown. I can't picture any NFP I have met being able to tolerate that for very long at all.


    As a comparison, INTPs get pushed into SFJ land sometimes -- but they don't STAY there. They usually blow up, then get a grip or withdraw. (That says something as well, I guess... See how people retreat BACK to their preferred functions, even after they have indulged the shadow?)

    The ex here seems to have the STJ as the foundation. The paranoia (Ne) is his inferior shadow (lots of paranoia!), and the shadow Fi is him focusing solely on his own values and refusing to regard anyone else's as important... it justifies him sticking with SiTe. Meanwhile, he clings to the Si + Te in order to keep his world stabilized.

    At least, that is how I am seeing it.
    Yes, I agree too, that was what I was seeing too, I haven't seen any NFP behaviour in him, I knew him for so long, lived with him, I knew his past, spoke to people who knew him better in his past, and still no NFP pattern is discernable to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    But he may have been highly unhealthy and deep within his shadows. From all I've heard he was hardly a paragon of good mental health...

    He could be unhealthy because he is trying to be something he is not too. He may be an NP trying desperately to be SJ to fit with his religion and teaching, and desperately unhappy and abusive as a result.
    -Geoff
    Now this I could agree with too, if it wasn't for the consistancy of the behaviour, he is 38 now, that is a long time struggling and acting a part, I agree with Jen that usually when we are forced to be something we are not it is only a matter of time before we explode/implode and withdraw.

    However maybe that is where the violence came from, the explosion......still even at his nicest most relaxed happiest "I'm going to ignore religion today", we still lacked an NFP connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well... is he?

    He could also be a plant for the CIA, monitoring Sahara because she is the unknown heir to the fortune of one of the middle-east oil barons. But it's not likely.

    But seriously, what would an NP (especially an NFP) trying so hard to be an SJ (especially an STJ) look like? Can we paint a probable picture of one and see how it compares? Do we have any notable examples of that in the public culture?
    I wish.......well actually maybe not, no amount of money would be worth plunging back into that life again.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  3. #23
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    The bum comment wasn't meant to be applied to all p's , just for him, but I could see how it came across as a generalised comment about all P's because of the context I used it in......ooops (disorganised, lazy etc, it is kind of true don't you think? the more P, the more disorganised?) (still learning)
    Oh, I don't mind that part... I meant the reverse - that Js are actually very good at being "bums". That is to say that while bums are likely to be Ps, it is not likely that Ps are bums.

    I guess the underlying message was to type according to styles, not the generalisation. If he is a "bum" because he was religiously anti-materialistic, or if he was putting all his efforts towards one particular task which wasn't very helpful, or if he was donating all his money/efforts... That all happens a lot with Js.

    Likewise, if the dominant trait was his emotional stability, the J would just be a small style difference. In cases of "abnormal" psychology, you'd have to reach outside of MBTI... it's even one of guidelines within MBTI. I'd guess this is an example of the outside factors mattering more than type.

    But thanks for that, you laid it out in a way I am better able to understand, I love the way you put things, it's so easy to get.
    Wow... That's the first time I have heard that

    Yes, this was what made me give him the J first off, it was only because I began thinking about his disorganisation, and the fact that I was the one who was forced to be more proactive during the marriage that made me become unsure again.
    Well, not to move away from MBTI, but trait dominance plays a huge role in this. Within MBTI, I think you would call it expressed traits, where he is clearly expressing the unhealthy versions of closed minded and disagreeable tendencies from S and T. The J traits are all internalised (authority, rejection of fact). And of course, if he was emotionally reactive, that particular trait drastically changes the way T is expressed (correlated with abuse and other significant relationship issues). The lack of empathy and the like makes him a T, but the joy in suffering and such is likely to be neurotic with T.

    I'm building a framework around moderate correlations, so I don't pretend to really know... But if I had to rank probabilities, it would be ISTJ, ESTJ, ISTP, ESTP, INTJ, ENTJ... All with high neuroticism (that's one trait that if you disagree with, could change the way I type him.)

  4. #24
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    My gut instinct is ISTP, ISTJ.

  5. #25
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    I suggest you try to understand him and not his MBTI type.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #26
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I suggest you try to understand him and not his MBTI type.
    Well I think she is trying to use MBTI to understand a man she didnt have a happy life with. Not a bad aim (even if ultimately the flaws in MBTI may hold that back)

    -Geoff

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  8. #28
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Oh, I don't mind that part... I meant the reverse - that Js are actually very good at being "bums". That is to say that while bums are likely to be Ps, it is not likely that Ps are bums.

    I guess the underlying message was to type according to styles, not the generalisation. If he is a "bum" because he was religiously anti-materialistic, or if he was putting all his efforts towards one particular task which wasn't very helpful, or if he was donating all his money/efforts... That all happens a lot with Js.

    Likewise, if the dominant trait was his emotional stability, the J would just be a small style difference. In cases of "abnormal" psychology, you'd have to reach outside of MBTI... it's even one of guidelines within MBTI. I'd guess this is an example of the outside factors mattering more than type.
    Yes, I need to let go of that notion that being a J automatically means you get things done.

    One more thing on the whole J P divide, he never got anything he ever started done aside from his driving lessons, but that was because he had to if he wanted to drive legally. He laid the wooden floor and ran out of wood a few strips to the end, for a year those strips never got laid, or added, they just sat there, it was only to tempt me to stay that he eventually got round to laying the rest.

    He felt that as a man he was best suited to controlling the finances, and yet I (who am hopeless with money) made better headway getting our finances back under control, infact since leaving him my finances have improved because he was such a drain, especially since he would take my money and dole out an allowance for the household needs that nowhere near covered the reality of living expenses.

    In his head he was a J, in his actions he seems very P, but like you suggest it could simply be he was a lazy J.


    Wow... That's the first time I have heard that
    Aww , I'm serious, you blow the whole "S's are stupid" theory that abounds in these halls out of the water, as does nocturne.


    Well, not to move away from MBTI, but trait dominance plays a huge role in this. Within MBTI, I think you would call it expressed traits, where he is clearly expressing the unhealthy versions of closed minded and disagreeable tendencies from S and T. The J traits are all internalised (authority, rejection of fact). And of course, if he was emotionally reactive, that particular trait drastically changes the way T is expressed (correlated with abuse and other significant relationship issues). The lack of empathy and the like makes him a T, but the joy in suffering and such is likely to be neurotic with T.

    I'm building a framework around moderate correlations, so I don't pretend to really know... But if I had to rank probabilities, it would be ISTJ, ESTJ, ISTP, ESTP, INTJ, ENTJ... All with high neuroticism (that's one trait that if you disagree with, could change the way I type him.)

    No disagreement from me, he is definately highly neurotic, and I think I agree with the ISTJ being the most likely one, although I would put ISTP as the next, I really can't see any extraversion from him, he shuns and loathes socialising, hates parties and crowds, isn't confident in his approach towards women (I was often told by his family that they were shocked he approached me in the street, infact he often commented on how unlike him it was but he felt driven to ensure he would see me again), I find E types a bit more forward in their approach, sexually there was no extraverted behaviour, it was a shy and fumbling slow process. Am I not understanding completely what being an E entails do you think? Like with my semi assumption that most, if not all J's got things done?


    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    My gut instinct is ISTP, ISTJ.
    Mine two, just in the other order.

    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I suggest you try to understand him and not his MBTI type.
    I can't understand him as a person, I can't bring myself to even try to understand him as a person, to understand is to eventually forgive, and I never want to forgive him, ever, he is not worthy of my forgiveness.

    It was understanding him that made me stay so long, that made me feel pity for him, to empathise with the pain of his childhood having experienced a bad one myself, all of these were emotional blackmail against me, his way of tugging my heart stay, I longed to believe the goodness that I once believed was inherent in all of mankind, at least somewhere, with him I learnt that was wrong. I found myself often standing there gobsmacked at the cruelty and complete lack of compassion this man had, yet I understood it's source and for that held back judgement.

    The compassionate understanding me is someone I don't want to be anymore.

    It's silly of me to want to know his type in order to avoid it, call this a trial and error part of me trying to get control back, just one of those harebrained schemes that I go through, and an actual part of my growing process but I doubt this will be a permament way of thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post

    Thank you heart, I found that really interesting, I am going to buy that book.

    Had to laugh at it's description of the idealist masquerade.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  9. #29
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Yes, I need to let go of that notion that being a J automatically means you get things done.
    Well, in theory, it should mean he has a tendency for closure... "done", however, is relative to the importance of the thing that needs to be done.

    For example, my GF doesn't put her clothes away... at all... yet is particular about other things, like dishes and such. Although she is an INTJ and they seem to have a bit more flexibility in how erratic they are ( ), the ISTJ will absolutely do what he thinks he "should", and will almost always finish it. I'd be more likely to type him ISTP if you say he didn't keep up religious acts, etc that were well defined in his life.

    One more thing on the whole J P divide, he never got anything he ever started done aside from his driving lessons, but that was because he had to if he wanted to drive legally. He laid the wooden floor and ran out of wood a few strips to the end, for a year those strips never got laid, or added, they just sat there, it was only to tempt me to stay that he eventually got round to laying the rest.
    That's suspicious, since a major part of being a J is the closure aspects. The flighty aspect seems very P... almost the very opposite from being a J. Perhaps there is a component of ADD with his neuroticism... or perhaps the inability to integrate new information was from extreme S components and has nothing to do with the J/P part.

    He felt that as a man he was best suited to controlling the finances, and yet I (who am hopeless with money) made better headway getting our finances back under control, infact since leaving him my finances have improved because he was such a drain, especially since he would take my money and dole out an allowance for the household needs that nowhere near covered the reality of living expenses.
    This lack of bending to reality seems rather extreme. I've only seen it a few times in my life, and it has come from both SJs and SPs. Everyone does it a little bit... But his closed minded part is rather extreme. I assumed it was an unhealthy SJ trait, but it's not impossible that it's just the closed part.

    Still, the inability to go back on his previous "views" (ie: your nationality/genetics stuff) seems more SJ than SP.

    In his head he was a J, in his actions he seems very P, but like you suggest it could simply be he was a lazy J.
    Was there anything that he refused to deviate from? Something scheduled or something more general, like religion? So not just the talk, but the acts themselves.

    No disagreement from me, he is definately highly neurotic, and I think I agree with the ISTJ being the most likely one, although I would put ISTP as the next, I really can't see any extraversion from him, he shuns and loathes socialising, hates parties and crowds, isn't confident in his approach towards women (I was often told by his family that they were shocked he approached me in the street, infact he often commented on how unlike him it was but he felt driven to ensure he would see me again), I find E types a bit more forward in their approach, sexually there was no extraverted behaviour, it was a shy and fumbling slow process. Am I not understanding completely what being an E entails do you think? Like with my semi assumption that most, if not all J's got things done?
    No, that sounds pretty good. The only other thing to measure for was how many positive emotions did he show (at all, inside and outside the home). More positive emotions generally means E, while neutral emotions indicate I. (And negative emotions show neuroticism, neutral emotions indicate stability). Someone E and neurotic will tend to swing rapidly and widely (and longer, and deeper!), while someone I and neurotic will tend to be negative only, normally "sour" types of people, except more reactive.

    The compassionate understanding me is someone I don't want to be anymore.
    I think you do yourself a disservice. Who you are is wonderful and is the one thing you shouldn't allow him to change! I do, however, think you need to work through, like you are with the type and everything else, who he was and what he did... and to do that, any objective way will help you understand without risking your considerate side. Just to be clear that I agree with nocturne on this... don't lock in one perspective (you haven't, which is why I didn't say anything... this started with attachment styles... but other views will be helpful for you).

    But if you do use it as a form of benchmark, there is one trait you need to avoid - neuroticism. You just plain need someone stable after all this, no matter what other factors are involved. I don't know how stable your support network is, but I think you have one here, online... But I'd suggest finding some people in your own life as well. Rounding out your life should be one of your main concerns, along with coping, dealing and moving on. That stability will be key in coping with future developments.

    And of course, all of this in your own time... but don't let it be too much in your own time... we can be our own worst enemies after trauma.

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I think you do yourself a disservice. Who you are is wonderful and is the one thing you shouldn't allow him to change!..
    And of course, all of this in your own time... but don't let it be too much in your own time... we can be our own worst enemies after trauma.
    Sahara, I have always envisioned you as a warrior -- not a cold merciless one, but one whose heart blazes with passion and conviction, outwardly fearless... or at least so convinced of her values that fear has no place in her life.

    (But I think you already know this, deep down... based on your consistent selection of avatars. I think it is who you WANT to be... and who you know deep-down you really are.)

    You don't want to let the fire burn out and sheath your heart in cold steel, which would be mostly you withdrawing from life and love (and THAT is the sterile legacy of your ex, the punishment HE would have for you, and his last merciless act of revenge); you want to stoke the fires of your soul even hotter, so that you are driven to go into the world and fight for life and love for everyone, along with yourself.

    I see a great deal of strength in you. Blaze like a sun.

    (I know this is a bit of a tangent from a discussion about your ex's type... but I didn't know where else to put it.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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