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  1. #11
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    High probability of him being an ISTJ, from what I have heard. This supports it fairly heavily.

    Also, knowing his history, it is highly probable that he is an -ST- with high neuroticism, as he correlates to quite a few of the related behaviours associated with that combination. So I'd type him as an ISTJ, but unlike the more stable duty-bound variety, he is a more neurotic/emotionally reactive type, one who would lash out easily. If so, you'd be looking for earmarks like justification from authority, blaming the other person for his acts, high emotional content to certain authorities... all things that you have expressed before.
    Yes yes, that is him, completely unable to look within himself for answers, blaming others, using authority as an excuse, totally paranoid headcase. So ISTJ? J even though he was a bum?

    Are there any mature ISTJ's around MBTI or INTPcentral that I could observe? Sona is the only other example so far lol
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  2. #12
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    It's very difficult to type an unhealthy individual because they are often overwhelmed by their shadow functions. If I had to pick something though I'd go for P with some sort of obsessive disorder/low self esteem bullying issues.

    -Geoff
    Ok, 1 for P, and 1 for J.

    But we are definately going with S then?
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    High probability of him being an ISTJ, from what I have heard. This supports it fairly heavily.

    Also, knowing his history, it is highly probable that he is an -ST- with high neuroticism, as he correlates to quite a few of the related behaviours associated with that combination. So I'd type him as an ISTJ, but unlike the more stable duty-bound variety, he is a more neurotic/emotionally reactive type, one who would lash out easily. If so, you'd be looking for earmarks like justification from authority, blaming the other person for his acts, high emotional content to certain authorities... all things that you have expressed before.
    If I had to pick, based on Sahara's comments, this is what I would say as well.

    I think the neurotic behaviors / flare points are the validators here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    A man is only meant to go work, pray with other men, and spend the evening at home with his family, last prayer is like a curfew (that so many do not know) from my reading, any social activities after last prayer should be religious circles, or family religious circles.
    Uh huh. This is a difference from conservative Christianity here. I think the preferred types in practice nowadays (regardless of scriptural leanings) are ESTJs being strong men and ISFJs being the quintessential female.

    NF is valued in terms of creating "mystical experience" and NT is valued in terms of explaining doctrine in a more holistic way... but as soon as it bumps up against the SJ valueset/establishment, it is nipped in the bud.

    You are not meant to question too much, to seek too far, which is why I think it pushes an S on us, all you need to know is in a book, and you shouldn't question beyond it.
    I think the more revelation-based the religion, the more that Openness (correlated to N) is rejected. If you already have the answers, there is no point in continual searching except to wander off the track and fall into darkness.

    I can not be sure on J or P, I think that is realy difficult for me to determine.
    If your ex was ISTP, he would be more responsive to the data coming from his surroundings and more freewheeling. (Ti + Se) He sounds much more like ISTJ. (Si + Te) -- he has an internalized ideal world that is his compass, and then tries to order the outer world to match it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Yes yes, that is him, completely unable to look within himself for answers, blaming others, using authority as an excuse, totally paranoid headcase. So ISTJ? J even though he was a bum?
    Yes. I see this pattern in male ISTJs. "Work" is external and sensory. So either they are visibly doing hands-on work that is clearly delineated, or they're not doing the work. ISFJ's are practical in the same sense; I watch them either go, go, go doing very visible handy work, or they crash and veg completely, then call themselves lazy. That's the paradigm they view work as.

    In contrast, an SP usually sees everything as "playtime." Their work and their play seem similar, and not as sharp a contrast. They are just "nosing around" no matter what they're doing.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If I had to pick, based on Sahara's comments, this is what I would say as well.

    I think the neurotic behaviors / flare points are the validators here.
    But what if they are extreme distress shadow functions?

    an NFP, for example, would exhibit high stress STJ. Rigid, inflexible, cold, dominating.

    -Geoff

  5. #15
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    But what if they are extreme distress shadow functions?

    an NFP, for example, would exhibit high stress STJ. Rigid, inflexible, cold, dominating.

    -Geoff
    Looking back on his life I couldn't ever give him an NFP tag, never dreamy, not into books, no imagination, practical, down to earth in a cruel pessimistic type way.

    I understand what you are saying about shadow functions but he would tell me of his childhood and life up to meeting me, and from what I have observed of NFP's playful outlook of life, I don't see that in him.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  6. #16
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Looking back on his life I couldn't ever give him an NFP tag, never dreamy, not into books, no imagination, practical, down to earth in a cruel pessimistic type way.

    I understand what you are saying about shadow functions but he would tell me of his childhood and life up to meeting me, and from what I have observed of NFP's playful outlook of life, I don't see that in him.
    I wasnt typing him NFP, that was a generic example.

    Also, I've seen you under stress be cold and rigid in the face of a difficult situation, so you can see what I mean if you think about it..

    -Geoff

    PS you do look a little as if you have english ancestry too I would say... despite what he might have thought....

  7. #17
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sahara View Post
    Yes yes, that is him, completely unable to look within himself for answers, blaming others, using authority as an excuse, totally paranoid headcase. So ISTJ? J even though he was a bum?
    Be careful about generalised stereotypes. For example, ISFJs make up over 60-70% of the nursing population, an incredible outstripping of any other type. However, saying that all ISFJs are/should be nurses isn't accurate.

    It's the same thing with ISTJs. Just because policemen (as an example, I don't know the numbers) are more likely to to be ISTJs doesn't mean that they have to be... to the degree that it would be unlikely than an ISTJ would be a policeman, although it is likely that a policeman is an ISTJ.

    Also, neuroticism is a serious barrier to personal relationships, job stability and performance. Unless one is in a career that required quick and extreme reactions, the ST and neuroticism components would be very difficult to do well with.

    But we are definately going with S then?
    The likelyhood of him being an N is already lower than 1/3, followed by some S tendencies (the concrete book examples, rather like my data drive).

    I went with J because he has a really hard time integrating new information into his worldview - this is largely a J problem. The paranoid aspects are also J more than P.

  8. #18
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    But what if they are extreme distress shadow functions?
    an NFP, for example, would exhibit high stress STJ. Rigid, inflexible, cold, dominating.
    I don't know, it just did not seem to come off this way.

    His normal mode of operation -- the place where he goes naturally and seems to do instinctively -- is the ISTJ stuff.

    An NFP under THAT amount of stress -- to be driven so FAR into the extreme shadow functions for such a long time -- just could NOT handle it for as long as her ex seems to have. They literally would have a breakdown. I can't picture any NFP I have met being able to tolerate that for very long at all.

    As a comparison, INTPs get pushed into SFJ land sometimes -- but they don't STAY there. They usually blow up, then get a grip or withdraw. (That says something as well, I guess... See how people retreat BACK to their preferred functions, even after they have indulged the shadow?)

    The ex here seems to have the STJ as the foundation. The paranoia (Ne) is his inferior shadow (lots of paranoia!), and the shadow Fi is him focusing solely on his own values and refusing to regard anyone else's as important... it justifies him sticking with SiTe. Meanwhile, he clings to the Si + Te in order to keep his world stabilized.

    At least, that is how I am seeing it.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #19
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    But he may have been highly unhealthy and deep within his shadows. From all I've heard he was hardly a paragon of good mental health...

    He could be unhealthy because he is trying to be something he is not too. He may be an NP trying desperately to be SJ to fit with his religion and teaching, and desperately unhappy and abusive as a result.

    -Geoff

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    But he may have been highly unhealthy and deep within his shadows. From all I've heard he was hardly a paragon of good mental health...

    He could be unhealthy because he is trying to be something he is not too. He may be an NP trying desperately to be SJ to fit with his religion and teaching, and desperately unhappy and abusive as a result.
    Well... is he?

    He could also be a plant for the CIA, monitoring Sahara because she is the unknown heir to the fortune of one of the middle-east oil barons. But it's not likely.

    But seriously, what would an NP (especially an NFP) trying so hard to be an SJ (especially an STJ) look like? Can we paint a probable picture of one and see how it compares? Do we have any notable examples of that in the public culture?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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