INXJ closed-minded certitude

[The Ü™]

I don't think Histrionic fits INFP at all. Histrionic seems more ESFJ or ESFP than anything. I also don't like the way David Kelly matches up Zodiac signs -- the water signs should all be in NF, air in NT, earth in SJ, and fire in SP.

 

[RDF]

I don't think Histrionic fits INFP at all. Histrionic seems more ESFJ or ESFP than anything. I also don't like the way David Kelly matches up Zodiac signs -- the water signs should all be in NF, air in NT, earth in SJ, and fire in SP.

You ought to look more closely at the definition of Histrionic PD. It's driven by very solipsistic, infantile needs. It's not just "I want X." It's not just mere hedonism or emotional neediness. HPD sufferers are so deeply wrapped up in their own dramas that they are inattentive to the world around them in a way that seems closer to self-involved INFPs rather than ESFXs.

I haven't paid attention to the Zodiac signs. I assume Kelly is just taking the stereotypical template for each type and trying to match it to MBTI. Same with Enneagram. I'm sure people will quibble about those matches, but I really can't judge either way.

But his work with MBTI versus Oldham portraits and PDs seems pretty strong.

FL

 

[Economica]

I just came across this excellent example of closed-minded certitude sabotaging someone's life:

Dear Prudence,

I am a divorced woman in my 40s. I have been seeing a man in his early 50s, whom I love immensely. He is handsome, intelligent and most of the time he treats me like I am the love of his life. He gets me, he laughs at my jokes, and he listens. He is a wonderful lover - physically and emotionally. The problem? He is never, ever wrong. Whenever we fight, I am the one who has to get us past it with an apology. At first I would apologize with tears and remorse because he was so steadfast in his refusal to acknowledge my side. After two years, I realize that I can't possibly be to blame every time! Last night, after he accused me of behaving like a bitch, I offered an obligatory though lame, "I'm sorry." I didn't mean it. But it was either say those two words or start the fight over again. He doesn't realize this is chipping away at my regard for him. He has never had therapy (I've had tons) and he has never been broken up with. I think that has allowed him to legitimize his feelings and negate those of the other person, and that it has worked quite well for him. Is this hopeless? Do I get out now before I begin to hate him, or do I dare suggest that he examine how he behaves in relationships? My gut tells me he would rather let me go than admit his own flaws, and that makes me so sad.

—Tired of Saying I'm Sorry

On that note, I've just checked the poll results, and I see that only 8 INTJs apart from myself have cared to vote.

Have I failed to create adequate options...?

Perhaps I should have included the option "This poll makes me uncomfortable la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you"?

 

[Mycroft]

Perhaps I should have included the option "This poll makes me uncomfortable la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you"?

Perhaps I don't speak for other INTJs, but it would take much more than an Internet message board thread to make me "uncomfortable".

 

[Economica]

Perhaps I don't speak for other INTJs, but it would take much more than an Internet message board thread to make me "uncomfortable".

Right, because iNtuitives respond only to physical threats in their immediate environment and are oblivious to psychological hits. :rolli:

PS: Mycroft, your signature always puts a smile on my face.

 

[INTJMom]

I voted: I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it.

I recognize closed-minded certitude as a potential weakness of INTJs, and I try to catch myself being too stubborn, and relent.

I used to be absolutely unwilling to allow anyone to sway my decisions or conclusions in any way. I was absolutely convinced I was right.

However, I believe that certainty came from mostly from immaturity, and as I matured, I realized that I was sometimes too tunnel-visioned for my own good, and that I needed to allow input from other people. Once I experienced good success with that, it made it easier in times following. Now I sometimes even seek out input from others I respect, or who I know are gifted strategic thinkers!

I feel like I must have the final say though. I feel that I MUST behave out of my convictions based on principles and wisdom and truth - what I believe is right.

 

[INTJMom]

I just came across this excellent example of closed-minded certitude sabotaging someone's life:

On that note, I've just checked the poll results, and I see that only 8 INTJs apart from myself have cared to vote.

Have I failed to create adequate options...?

Perhaps I should have included the option "This poll makes me uncomfortable la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you"?

I'm not sure that only INTJs are this type of "I'm never wrong" person. Also, I don't think it's only type that makes people unwilling or unable to say I'm sorry. "I'm sorry" requires a little humility, and pride is the bane of humanity.

My parents never once said I'm sorry to me. No one ever did. I never had it modeled to me. I used to flush with severe shame when someone would accuse me of doing something wrong. I had to learn to say I'm sorry. Now I do it as an easy matter of politeness. I have taught my children to do it. Everyone should know how to say I'm sorry, and admit they're wr - wr - wrong.

 

[hatchback176]

Re:Closed Minded Certainty

Crosslink:similarminds.com :: View topic - INTJs and Closed Minded Certainty
My motivation for this post: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...trices/1369-inxj-closed-minded-certitude.html
CC = closed-minded certitude

Let's take my man Henry Kissinger's kind of political philosophy...
Political realism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And take an NLP-inspired set of patterns...
Sleight of mouth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Concretize/Sequence/Contextualize it through a process of negotiation, along with an interesting tie in to MBTI...
The Process of Negotiation
The Temperament Sorter (INTJs being the tougher nut to crack according to the poll)
Negotiation Basics
Negotiating Pattern Language

What kinds of possibilities/opportunities can we look forward to in interacting with CC inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs)?
Is it possible to plant the seed of Socionics : Extraverted Intuition as Leading Function (Extraverted Intuition) and allow for growth in CC-inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs)?
In our kind of world if you're not adapting, you're dying off with the dinosaurs. You become a boring statue of a person. So the question becomes "What sorts of tools/sensors do I need to see/probe pattern-space and interact constructively with the world around me?"
An important one is Gregory Bateson's "Difference that makes a difference" definition of information. It's important to know when your concepts/behaviors stop corresponding to the reality around you. Where are your sources of mismatches/uncertainty/conflict/novelty/reasons for change? In the case of CC-inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs) their missed opportunities for novelty seem to come from trying to come to conclusions too early with friends who are trying to offer the novelty.
Now to bring in the hyperlinks above.

• Ben Kovitz of greenlightwiki has given us the concept of "Extraversion as negotiation".
• CC-inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs) are knowingly making power plays (political realism)
• The main resource they're fighting over are malleable beliefs (Dilt's patterns, Bateson's definition of information, and ever-increasing novelty)
• We can draw resiliency/information knowing the many ways of looking at the issue.

So I guess I'm trying to see how CC-inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs) can serve as catalysts to greater flexibility.


Thoughts??
1. Print out some business cards with the following taken from "Science, Strategy, and War" by Frans P.B. Osinga, hand them out and ask for feedback:
Characteristics of Creative People...
Thinking Abilities

• Use metaphors in thinking
• Flexible decision maker
• Uses broad categories
• Uses mental images
• Can cope with novelty
• Can break mental sets
• Finds order in chaos

Personality Characteristics

• Willing to take intellectual risk
• Curiousity and inquisitiveness
• Openness to new experiences
• Tolerates ambiguity
• Broad range of interests
• Playful with ideas
• Intuitive

Thinking Styles

• Challenges assumptions
• Looks for novelty and gaps in knowledge
• Draws new ideas out of existing knowledge

2. Teach them how to play like a kid again:
Play (activity) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Institute for Play The Patterns of Play
Play therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Many mature adults find that "child's play" is so difficult and taboo, that most experienced group workers need specially tailored "play" strategies to reach them. Competent adult-group workers will use these play strategies to enable more unguarded spontaneity to develop in the non-childish student."
3. Along with #2 is teaching them how to improvise:
Improv Skills
Tips And Techniques


Sorry for the mind-dump. :hi: to everyone that hasn't seen me on similarminds.com

 

[Athenian200]

I think I understand... I really don't think it's that I won't believe I'm wrong in any particular case, it's just that I need an explanation that changes/clarifies the assumptions in my original thinking, and can't just accept that something "is," simply because other people believe it. The difference between myself and an INTJ (in real life, anyway), is that I'll pretend to accept what other people think to be nice, but unless they say the right thing, I won't actually believe them.

Mainly, it's that I seem certain due to what I "see" when I look at an idea. It seems as real as the keyboard I use to type this message. So unless something changes my understanding of the situation, it's like I see a red balloon, and someone keeps insisting it was blue. Having it explained is like someone removing a colored lens from my eye, changing the lighting/viewing angle to show another side that actually is blue, or pointing to a different object, because I had my attention on the wrong one.

Usually, we find out that I was working with a different set of assumptions than they were, and that in a narrowly defined situation, with my original understanding, my idea was reasonable. Most people wouldn't be patient enough to wait for me to find that situation, however.

 

[wildcat]

Twice now I have posted the following regarding what I find is the most common, vexing and self-destructive problem area for INTJs (and possibly INFJs?), namely closed-minded certitude:



The single follow-up I have gotten is from an INTJ who wrote:





So I figure it's time for a poll. I'm making it multiple so that non-INXJs can vote on their experience with both types.

Selfishness does not need a plebiscite.

 

[proteanmix]

Hatchback: Really interesting information. I think I'll check out your links instead of working hard today.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Characteristics of Creative People...
Thinking Abilities

• Use metaphors in thinking
• Flexible decision maker
• Uses broad categories
• Uses mental images
• Can cope with novelty
• Can break mental sets
• Finds order in chaos

Personality Characteristics

• Willing to take intellectual risk
• Curiousity and inquisitiveness
• Openness to new experiences
• Tolerates ambiguity
• Broad range of interests
• Playful with ideas
• Intuitive

Thinking Styles

• Challenges assumptions
• Looks for novelty and gaps in knowledge
• Draws new ideas out of existing knowledge

That's my understanding of the INTJ mind. What aspects are different?

I've noticed the times I communicate with the most certitude is when there is a discussion that refuses to view an important angle. I myself am not typically resolved on the matter, but my motivation for what appears to be certitude occurs when there is refusal to consider an idea before dismissing it. This is especially true if the alternate viewpoint is critical for some reason. It feels like an instinct to balance the pool of ideas when there is a perceived lack of balance. It occurs most strongly when there is a sense of group think happening. I'd be curious how this applies to other INXJ's.

One time this happened was when people were ridiculing Creationists as lesser humans. It was not my purpose to debate the issue of Origins, but to make the point that there is a reason those people have come to their conclusions and it is important to not dismiss them as human beings. People who assume a superior stance without examining the world view of another person trigger a more aggressive style in my communication. This doesn't typically happen when a defense for the alternate world view is already represented in the discussion.

 

[hatchback176]

Well it's one thing to be talking with an INTJ and call them close-minded and another thing to be
1) Walking around with cards that you give to people
2) Give them a card/external-standard when they're getting stuffy

I think one of the funnest things in the world is to try and get inside the mind of another ENTJ/INTJ since it requires so much strategy/tactics.

Something else kind of interesting when I think about what an esfp would do is
Drama Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Splashing lots of attention, showing lots of enthusiasm, creating big displays, speed, speed, speed. Things that knock them out of their preparations.

 

[Mr Galt]

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what is being said in here. I have often expressed my reasoning for always believing that I am right by saying that I am right "until further notice", and once this further notice comes I am simply right NOW. Almost thought I was alone in that...so much for being unique. Economica forgot an important voting option, however.

"I am an INTJ and I believe that I do not suffer from closed-minded certitude. I quite enjoy it."

 

[GZA]

I'm not sure what to vote exactly. My sister is INTJ and as much as I love her she can be like that sometimes for sure. I know a couple of INFJ (including my cousin who is one of my best friends) and I don't think it describes them so much.

But yah, my sister definitely has this "I'm right" attitude a lot of the time and she beleives she is "above" things (like my messy basement, among other things) and I tell her to get off her high horse :steam: Anyway, so it applies to some people and not others.

 

[Kasper]

Isn't considering an entire type close minded kinda well, close minded?

 

[Thalassa]

Oh my god this is a perfect time to revive this thread.

 

[redacted]

Oh my god this is a perfect time to revive this thread.

No. You are wrong.

 

[Thalassa]

There's that pesky closed-minded certitude!

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ok, but where is the "I am INTJ, closed minded, but I quite proud of it actually" option ?