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View Poll Results: Do you suffer from/find that INXJs tend to suffer from closed-minded certitude?

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  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I have never really suffered from it

    15 13.64%
  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I used to suffer from it, but have overcome it

    14 12.73%
  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it

    20 18.18%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I have never really suffered from it

    12 10.91%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I used to suffer from it, but have overcome it

    6 5.45%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it

    11 10.00%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that practically all INTJs suffer from it

    17 15.45%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that 50% of INTJs or more suffer from it

    8 7.27%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that fewer than 50% of INTJs suffer from it

    7 6.36%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that this is not really a problem area for INTJs

    3 2.73%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that practically all INFJs suffer from it

    10 9.09%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that 50% of INFJs or more suffer from it

    9 8.18%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that fewer than 50% of INFJs suffer from it

    8 7.27%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that this is not really a problem area for INFJs

    8 7.27%
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Results 61 to 70 of 103

  1. #61
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    I don't think Histrionic fits INFP at all. Histrionic seems more ESFJ or ESFP than anything. I also don't like the way David Kelly matches up Zodiac signs -- the water signs should all be in NF, air in NT, earth in SJ, and fire in SP.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    I don't think Histrionic fits INFP at all. Histrionic seems more ESFJ or ESFP than anything. I also don't like the way David Kelly matches up Zodiac signs -- the water signs should all be in NF, air in NT, earth in SJ, and fire in SP.
    You ought to look more closely at the definition of Histrionic PD. It's driven by very solipsistic, infantile needs. It's not just "I want X." It's not just mere hedonism or emotional neediness. HPD sufferers are so deeply wrapped up in their own dramas that they are inattentive to the world around them in a way that seems closer to self-involved INFPs rather than ESFXs.

    I haven't paid attention to the Zodiac signs. I assume Kelly is just taking the stereotypical template for each type and trying to match it to MBTI. Same with Enneagram. I'm sure people will quibble about those matches, but I really can't judge either way.

    But his work with MBTI versus Oldham portraits and PDs seems pretty strong.

    FL

  3. #63
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    I just came across this excellent example of closed-minded certitude sabotaging someone's life:

    Dear Prudence,

    I am a divorced woman in my 40s. I have been seeing a man in his early 50s, whom I love immensely. He is handsome, intelligent and most of the time he treats me like I am the love of his life. He gets me, he laughs at my jokes, and he listens. He is a wonderful lover - physically and emotionally. The problem? He is never, ever wrong. Whenever we fight, I am the one who has to get us past it with an apology. At first I would apologize with tears and remorse because he was so steadfast in his refusal to acknowledge my side. After two years, I realize that I can't possibly be to blame every time! Last night, after he accused me of behaving like a bitch, I offered an obligatory though lame, "I'm sorry." I didn't mean it. But it was either say those two words or start the fight over again. He doesn't realize this is chipping away at my regard for him. He has never had therapy (I've had tons) and he has never been broken up with. I think that has allowed him to legitimize his feelings and negate those of the other person, and that it has worked quite well for him. Is this hopeless? Do I get out now before I begin to hate him, or do I dare suggest that he examine how he behaves in relationships? My gut tells me he would rather let me go than admit his own flaws, and that makes me so sad.

    —Tired of Saying I'm Sorry
    On that note, I've just checked the poll results, and I see that only 8 INTJs apart from myself have cared to vote.

    Have I failed to create adequate options...?

    Perhaps I should have included the option "This poll makes me uncomfortable la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you"?

  4. #64
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Perhaps I should have included the option "This poll makes me uncomfortable la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you"?
    Perhaps I don't speak for other INTJs, but it would take much more than an Internet message board thread to make me "uncomfortable".
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  5. #65
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Perhaps I don't speak for other INTJs, but it would take much more than an Internet message board thread to make me "uncomfortable".
    Right, because iNtuitives respond only to physical threats in their immediate environment and are oblivious to psychological hits. :rolli:

    PS: Mycroft, your signature always puts a smile on my face.

  6. #66
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    I voted: I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it.

    I recognize closed-minded certitude as a potential weakness of INTJs, and I try to catch myself being too stubborn, and relent.

    I used to be absolutely unwilling to allow anyone to sway my decisions or conclusions in any way. I was absolutely convinced I was right.

    However, I believe that certainty came from mostly from immaturity, and as I matured, I realized that I was sometimes too tunnel-visioned for my own good, and that I needed to allow input from other people. Once I experienced good success with that, it made it easier in times following. Now I sometimes even seek out input from others I respect, or who I know are gifted strategic thinkers!

    I feel like I must have the final say though. I feel that I MUST behave out of my convictions based on principles and wisdom and truth - what I believe is right.

  7. #67
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I just came across this excellent example of closed-minded certitude sabotaging someone's life:

    On that note, I've just checked the poll results, and I see that only 8 INTJs apart from myself have cared to vote.

    Have I failed to create adequate options...?

    Perhaps I should have included the option "This poll makes me uncomfortable la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you"?
    I'm not sure that only INTJs are this type of "I'm never wrong" person. Also, I don't think it's only type that makes people unwilling or unable to say I'm sorry. "I'm sorry" requires a little humility, and pride is the bane of humanity.

    My parents never once said I'm sorry to me. No one ever did. I never had it modeled to me. I used to flush with severe shame when someone would accuse me of doing something wrong. I had to learn to say I'm sorry. Now I do it as an easy matter of politeness. I have taught my children to do it. Everyone should know how to say I'm sorry, and admit they're wr - wr - wrong.

  8. #68
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    Default Re:Closed Minded Certainty

    Crosslink:similarminds.com :: View topic - INTJs and Closed Minded Certainty
    My motivation for this post: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...certitude.html
    CC = closed-minded certitude

    Let's take my man Henry Kissinger's kind of political philosophy...
    Political realism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    And take an NLP-inspired set of patterns...
    Sleight of mouth - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Concretize/Sequence/Contextualize it through a process of negotiation, along with an interesting tie in to MBTI...
    The Process of Negotiation
    The Temperament Sorter (INTJs being the tougher nut to crack according to the poll)
    Negotiation Basics
    Negotiating Pattern Language

    What kinds of possibilities/opportunities can we look forward to in interacting with CC inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs)?
    Is it possible to plant the seed of Socionics : Extraverted Intuition as Leading Function (Extraverted Intuition) and allow for growth in CC-inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs)?
    In our kind of world if you're not adapting, you're dying off with the dinosaurs. You become a boring statue of a person. So the question becomes "What sorts of tools/sensors do I need to see/probe pattern-space and interact constructively with the world around me?"
    An important one is Gregory Bateson's "Difference that makes a difference" definition of information. It's important to know when your concepts/behaviors stop corresponding to the reality around you. Where are your sources of mismatches/uncertainty/conflict/novelty/reasons for change? In the case of CC-inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs) their missed opportunities for novelty seem to come from trying to come to conclusions too early with friends who are trying to offer the novelty.
    Now to bring in the hyperlinks above.
    • Ben Kovitz of greenlightwiki has given us the concept of "Extraversion as negotiation".
    • CC-inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs) are knowingly making power plays (political realism)
    • The main resource they're fighting over are malleable beliefs (Dilt's patterns, Bateson's definition of information, and ever-increasing novelty)
    • We can draw resiliency/information knowing the many ways of looking at the issue.


    So I guess I'm trying to see how CC-inflicted Ni-Dominants (especially INTJs) can serve as catalysts to greater flexibility.


    Thoughts??

    1. Print out some business cards with the following taken from "Science, Strategy, and War" by Frans P.B. Osinga, hand them out and ask for feedback:
    Characteristics of Creative People...
    Thinking Abilities
    • Use metaphors in thinking
    • Flexible decision maker
    • Uses broad categories
    • Uses mental images
    • Can cope with novelty
    • Can break mental sets
    • Finds order in chaos

    Personality Characteristics
    • Willing to take intellectual risk
    • Curiousity and inquisitiveness
    • Openness to new experiences
    • Tolerates ambiguity
    • Broad range of interests
    • Playful with ideas
    • Intuitive

    Thinking Styles
    • Challenges assumptions
    • Looks for novelty and gaps in knowledge
    • Draws new ideas out of existing knowledge

    2. Teach them how to play like a kid again:
    Play (activity) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Institute for Play The Patterns of Play
    Play therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "Many mature adults find that "child's play" is so difficult and taboo, that most experienced group workers need specially tailored "play" strategies to reach them. Competent adult-group workers will use these play strategies to enable more unguarded spontaneity to develop in the non-childish student."
    3. Along with #2 is teaching them how to improvise:
    Improv Skills
    Tips And Techniques


    Sorry for the mind-dump. to everyone that hasn't seen me on similarminds.com
    Last edited by hatchback176; 11-05-2007 at 05:34 AM. Reason: filled in crosslink

  9. #69
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I think I understand... I really don't think it's that I won't believe I'm wrong in any particular case, it's just that I need an explanation that changes/clarifies the assumptions in my original thinking, and can't just accept that something "is," simply because other people believe it. The difference between myself and an INTJ (in real life, anyway), is that I'll pretend to accept what other people think to be nice, but unless they say the right thing, I won't actually believe them.

    Mainly, it's that I seem certain due to what I "see" when I look at an idea. It seems as real as the keyboard I use to type this message. So unless something changes my understanding of the situation, it's like I see a red balloon, and someone keeps insisting it was blue. Having it explained is like someone removing a colored lens from my eye, changing the lighting/viewing angle to show another side that actually is blue, or pointing to a different object, because I had my attention on the wrong one.

    Usually, we find out that I was working with a different set of assumptions than they were, and that in a narrowly defined situation, with my original understanding, my idea was reasonable. Most people wouldn't be patient enough to wait for me to find that situation, however.

  10. #70
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Twice now I have posted the following regarding what I find is the most common, vexing and self-destructive problem area for INTJs (and possibly INFJs?), namely closed-minded certitude:



    The single follow-up I have gotten is from an INTJ who wrote:





    So I figure it's time for a poll. I'm making it multiple so that non-INXJs can vote on their experience with both types.
    Selfishness does not need a plebiscite.

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