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View Poll Results: Do you suffer from/find that INXJs tend to suffer from closed-minded certitude?

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  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I have never really suffered from it

    15 13.64%
  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I used to suffer from it, but have overcome it

    14 12.73%
  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it

    20 18.18%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I have never really suffered from it

    12 10.91%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I used to suffer from it, but have overcome it

    6 5.45%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it

    11 10.00%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that practically all INTJs suffer from it

    17 15.45%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that 50% of INTJs or more suffer from it

    8 7.27%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that fewer than 50% of INTJs suffer from it

    7 6.36%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that this is not really a problem area for INTJs

    3 2.73%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that practically all INFJs suffer from it

    10 9.09%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that 50% of INFJs or more suffer from it

    9 8.18%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that fewer than 50% of INFJs suffer from it

    8 7.27%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that this is not really a problem area for INFJs

    8 7.27%
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Results 51 to 60 of 103

  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Maybe close-mindedness isn't the most suitable word when it comes the INFJ-kin. That could be why you have trouble recognizing it. What we're talking about in the INFJ is more of a stubbornness; a willingness to stay with a point or an opinion in their heads even after the external situation have proven it wrong or inferior. The difference from their T-kin is that Fe wants to accomodate while the IN_J only sees things its own way. This usually leads to occurances where the INFJ gives its ground but only in a grumling manner, sprinkled with uncertainties. I get that from all the INFJs I know, although, luckyly, my woman is the one who suffers these traits the least
    .
    Stubborness... hmm... I guess I could see that as more likely than close mindedness. I'm not saying it doesn't occur, I just have a very limited sample size of 3. It could very well be the case that most of the other INFJs are like this - which is why I wanted to hear specific examples/experiences frrom the folks here who voted this occurred often with them....

  2. #52

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    Do most people here find INFJs more guilty of this than ENFJs?

  3. #53
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Yes, because ENFJs are more objective about their values. You can show them that they are not saintly by pointing out exactly what they did and how according to the values they hold its evil/wrong. Whilst with the INFJs its more difficult to do as their Intuition obscures their Rational(In the Jungian sense), feeling-based judgments.

    ENFJs seem to be more certain of their moral rectitude and ENTJs more stubborn, yet an ENTJ could be silenced with hard logic alone, while the INTJ wouldnt because they have their subjective Intuitions to fall back on. And ENFJs could be put in their place by pointing out how exactly what they did wasnt good, whilst the INFJs would be able to escape the conviction by running off into their own, self-created world of Introverted Intuition.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #54

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    I tend to think I’m as right as I could possibly be at any given moment, unless there are obvious influences to my attitude, like being angry or upset at the time. There isn’t much of a problem acting as if you are always right, because with dominant Ni, it is somewhat true.

    When I have an opinion, it isn’t set in stone. Even as someone is in the middle of explain why I’m wrong, my initial belief is under a subtle stream of revision, becoming more right.

    Although I don’t do this at its extreme, I would be the person who, if someone articulates knowledge contrary to my own which I can agree with, I immediately absorb it and respond “Yeah, I know.” It’s not that I was right or ahead from the beginning. Rather, their point was in the back of my mind and had just shifted into clarity upon hearing them say it. It feels like they solidify something I already knew in the abstract (which arguably may not be considered knowing) compelling me to feel I'd known it all along, and had always been right.

    In other words, suffering (barely) and working to overcome it.

    "A want fastened, wants annihilation."

  5. #55
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    We INTJs base a lot of our self-esteem on being insightful and decisive, but we are not always right - and that's okay. Making errors (of fact and of judgment) is forgivable. (People don't mind that we are not perfectly oracular. Really! ) Refusing to recognize and own up to our errors, however, costs us serious points. And it's idiotic, really, given that we aren't fooling anyone, just alienating them. Some strategists!
    I think this is true for everyone. I've met closed-mindedness in all people, including myself.

    INTJs and INFJs have a tendency of pointing out things I've never considered and making me feel like an ass. But lots of people do that to me, not just INXJs. I wouldn't say INXJs have a closed-minded certitude. At least, no more than the next type. I think it's just certitude, confidence, whatever.

    I know one INTJ who is open-minded toward just about everything, but he just will not budge on his opinions of homosexuality. I think everyone has their rubs. And for everyone at one time or another, it's hard to have to recant a statement on a discussion board, to admit you stuck your foot in your mouth, or to just admit to plain being wrong. It comes and goes, for me. That's on and off discussion boards.

  6. #56
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    I tend to think I’m as right as I could possibly be at any given moment, unless there are obvious influences to my attitude, like being angry or upset at the time. There isn’t much of a problem acting as if you are always right, because with dominant Ni, it is somewhat true.

    In other words, suffering (barely) and working to overcome it.
    Haha, and then I read this.

  7. #57
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    0 REM VERISIMILITUDE
    10 IF ITISWHAT$="IT IS" THEN LET A$="IT IS"
    20 END

  8. #58
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    The following is all off-the-cuff (based on amateur reading and personal impressions), but I thought I would put in my two cents. (Warning: I'm sort of still working in the vein of Freudian psychology from my posts this last weekend.)

    I tend to see iNtuition as pattern-seeking behavior: Taking elements and weaving and juxtaposing them until correspondences are found.

    This process is more visible in the Dominant Ne types (ENFP and ENTP), who like to juggle ideas in order to view the interactions between ideas. In a sense, these types are the ultimate brainstormers. They pick up, play with, and discard ideas with lightening speed. The downside, of course, can be a casual attitude toward ideas or superficiality.

    Extraverted iNtuiting

    By comparison, the "pattern-seeking" process is much less visible in the Dominant Ni types (INFJ and INTJ). But the PersonalityPage.com website describes Ni as gathering information and weaving it into a web or framework of interconnected ideas. Again, there is a sense of weaving and juxtaposing.

    However, due to the "framework" nature of their internal landscape, Dominant Ni apparently does less "juggling" than Dominant Ne. The framework of Dominant Ni is more static than the extraverted juggling of Dominant Ne.

    Introverted iNtuition is sort of like a framework for understanding that exists in the mind. As something is perceived, it is melded into the existing intuitive framework. If an entirely new piece of information is perceived by the Introverted iNtuitive, that person must redefine their entire framework of reference.

    INTJ Personal Growth
    I suspect that this framework gives Dominant Ni types a sense of "certitude" about their values and ideas. Due to the interconnectedness of their internal values and ideas, any one idea or value is supported and validated by all the other ideas and values in the framework and thus has a "feeling" of certainty to it. By the same token, Dominant Ni may resist new information that forces it to change its ideas. Dominant Ni may find new information jarring. Due to the interconnectedness of the framework, weaving in a new piece of information can mean changing up the entire framework. Thus, the flip side of certitude may be unwillingness to consider opposing ideas.

    (Comparing INFJs to INTJs, I tend to think that this kind of certitude is mitigated in INFJs by their Auxiliary Fe as a factor orienting them to other people rather than to abstract ideas as in INTJs, i.e., anchoring INFJs more in reality. But I tend to see INFJs as occasionally becoming rigid about certain ideas and values as well.)

    On a tangent going out even further into off-the-cuff territory:

    Just for the heck of it, I also tend to see Dominant Ni associated with the Freudian concept of "magical thinking." That is, we all tend to interpret the outside world in terms of our internal mental landscape. According to Dominant Ni, ideas make sense by virtue of how well they fit into a framework and interact in juxtaposition with other things. So when Dominant Ni views the outside world, it tends to look for things in correlation to other things: ideas in juxtaposition, opposing objects in balance, correlation equaling causation, etc. This is at the heart of "magical thinking."

    Magical thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    magical thinking

    Magical thinking is at the base of many superstitions such as astrology, and INTJs in particular are sometimes characterized as prone to superstitions as part of their willingness to pursue offbeat ideas. Magical thinking is also at the base of schizotypal personality disorders, and INTJs sometimes get tagged with a tendency in that direction as well. (Again, I think this is somewhat mitigated in INFJs due to their Auxiliary Fe as a factor orienting them to other people, i.e., anchoring them more in reality.)

    Astrology, in its traditional form, is a type of divination based on the theory that the positions and movements of celestial bodies (stars, planets, sun, and moon) at the time of birth profoundly influence a person's life. In its psychological form, astrology is a type of New Age therapy used for self-understanding and personality analysis (astrotherapy). In both forms, it is a manifestation of magical thinking.

    astrology
    Just my quick two cents, purely off-the-cuff and based on amateur interest in these subjects.

    FL

  9. #59
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    Schizoids seem to correspond more with Ni, actually, because they're preoccupied with introspection and fantasy in addition to lack of desire to connect with others, the latter of which makes it correspond more specifically to INTJ and INTP.

    Paranoid personality disorder seems to directly correspond with Ne, since it's outwardly directed.

    I actually think that Schizotypal is the halfway mark between Schizoid and Paranoid personality disorders, making it correspond to either Ni or Ne.

    In short, Ns are more likely to be diagnosed with the eccentric personality disorders.

    I think the INFJ and INFP types are more likely to correspond with Avoidant personality disorder.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Schizoids seem to correspond more with Ni, actually, because they're preoccupied with introspection and fantasy in addition to lack of desire to connect with others, the latter of which makes it correspond more specifically to INTJ and INTP.

    Paranoid personality disorder seems to directly correspond with Ne, since it's outwardly directed.

    I actually think that Schizotypal is the halfway mark between Schizoid and Paranoid personality disorders, making it correspond to either Ni or Ne.

    In short, Ns are more likely to be diagnosed with the eccentric personality disorders.

    I think the INFJ and INFP types are more likely to correspond with Avoidant personality disorder.
    Well, first off, Schizotypal PD is the one that's closest in symptoms to Schizophrenia, including ideas of reference (the stage of thinking just prior to delusions) and "magical thinking".

    By contrast, Schizoid PD is much more benign. Some analysts consider Schizoid PD similar in appearance to Avoidant PD, with the distinction that AvPD sufferers feel a high degree of anxiety while Schizoid PD sufferers may in fact be quite content with their situation.

    No offense, but I personally find INTJ thinking very different from INTP thinking. Taken them to their respective extremes, INTJs can pursue some very strange and bizarre paths of thought and still retain full confidence that they have the truth by the balls; while INTPs in fact think relatively normally but have much lower confidence and/or simply find interacting with the world more trouble than it's worth.

    Hence I tend to see INTJ thinking more closely related to Schizotypal and INTP thinking more closely related to Schizoid.

    Here is a description of Schizotypal PD (note the second bulleted item):

    The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (American Psychiatric Association, 1994, pg. 645) describes Schizotypal Personality Disorder as a pervasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as by cognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

    - ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference);

    - odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or "sixth sense"; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations);

    - unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions;

    - odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped);

    - suspiciousness or paranoid ideation;

    - inappropriate or constricted affect;

    - behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar;

    - lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives;

    - excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self.

    The disorder does not occur exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, another Psychotic Disorder, or a Pervasive Developmental Disorder.

    PTypes - Schizotypal Personality Disorder Criteria
    In short, I pretty much agree with the way Dave Kelly relates MBTI to PDs (see link below). For example, I like his linking of INFP to Histrionic PD rather than Avoidant PD (as others tend to do). It's a toss-up; there are both histrionic INFPs and avoidant INFPs. But comparing INFJs and INFPs, I would agree that INFPs are by far the bigger drama queens and hence the better candidates for Histrionic PD.

    And I can see INFJs as Avoidant-leaning when one remembers that the distress level is very high for Avoidant PD - similar to the distress level for Schizotypal PD.

    PTypes - Correspondence of PTypes, Keirsey, Enneagram, Psychiatric, and Astrological Types

    FL

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