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View Poll Results: Do you suffer from/find that INXJs tend to suffer from closed-minded certitude?

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  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I have never really suffered from it

    15 13.64%
  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I used to suffer from it, but have overcome it

    14 12.73%
  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it

    20 18.18%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I have never really suffered from it

    12 10.91%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I used to suffer from it, but have overcome it

    6 5.45%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it

    11 10.00%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that practically all INTJs suffer from it

    17 15.45%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that 50% of INTJs or more suffer from it

    8 7.27%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that fewer than 50% of INTJs suffer from it

    7 6.36%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that this is not really a problem area for INTJs

    3 2.73%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that practically all INFJs suffer from it

    10 9.09%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that 50% of INFJs or more suffer from it

    9 8.18%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that fewer than 50% of INFJs suffer from it

    8 7.27%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that this is not really a problem area for INFJs

    8 7.27%
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Results 31 to 40 of 103

  1. #31
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    We INTJs base a lot of our self-esteem on being insightful and decisive, but we are not always right - and that's okay. Making errors (of fact and of judgment) is forgivable. (People don't mind that we are not perfectly oracular. Really! ) Refusing to recognize and own up to our errors, however, costs us serious points. And it's idiotic, really, given that we aren't fooling anyone, just alienating them. Some strategists!
    I would say that I definately have this, but I don't always use it. If I am with close friends, I will own up to it if I am wrong. However, if I am around idiots or people that I don't know well, it will sometimes annoy me that they have proved me wrong and I will just let the issue drop (Although, I will frequently think about their point of view later and decide that it was, in fact, better).

    INTJs are always right. It's not that they are "objectively" right, it's that, right of this moment, they are right. If it turns out that they were wrong about something, they change it... and of course, that means they are right again. Since the change is instant, they are never wrong... always right, always certain.
    The general consensus seems to be that this is a weakness. I disagree. Does it help our social life? Well...no, but it can definately be a strength professionaly (as in...anything that isn't social). Sometimes the appearance of confidence is just as important as actually being confident. This is particularly true for those in leadership positions. Appearing to "flip-flop" on positions doesn't help you at all. This is probably why we tend to do this.

    Plus, I think it is a strength that we are willing to change our position at all. Would it not be even worse to just stick with our original wrong, point of view?

    I guess what I am trying to say is that this close-minded certitude isn't a weakness, it is a strength. Our true weakness is that we are not able to adapt it socially, and thus make it more effective. That is why it appears to be a weakness...We are examining it from a casual conversation/social situation point of view.

    Being wrong sometimes does not hurt our standing with other people.
    I entirely agree, but as I just stated, the appearance of being wrong too often can hurt in professional situations.

    I haven't voted because I don't view INTJ's as having close minded certitude. I would describe them as having open minded certitude. INTJ's are very willing to listen to another's viewpoint and to receive correction. It's just that they seem deceptively sure about their all of their ideas regardless of what they are.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  2. #32
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    The general consensus seems to be that this is a weakness. I disagree. Does it help our social life? Well...no, but it can definately be a strength professionaly (as in...anything that isn't social). Sometimes the appearance of confidence is just as important as actually being confident. This is particularly true for those in leadership positions. Appearing to "flip-flop" on positions doesn't help you at all.
    I agree that in a leadership position it is usually imperative to publicly project confidence. (Though the approach does have its limitations, as showcased by a certain president. ) However, privately - i.e. around those who are close enough to you to not be taken in by the "always right" song-and-dance - be they friends, family, coworkers, subordinates, advisers, whoever - the keeping-up-appearances version of CC can only hurt you.

    Plus, I think it is a strength that we are willing to change our position at all. Would it not be even worse to just stick with our original wrong, point of view?
    Well, actually, this is precisely what a lot of people think INXJs do.

    To recap:

    Self-deceiving CC: Refusing to recognize, let alone own up to an error.
    Keeping-up-appearances CC: Conceding a point and updating one's opinion, but refusing to acknowledge to others that this is what has occurred.

    If the first concept is foreign to you and you don't subject close friends to the second have no qualms subjecting "idiots and people you don't know well" to the second, then perhaps you should have voted differently?
    Last edited by Economica; 08-09-2007 at 05:05 AM. Reason: Replaced strike-through

  3. #33
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Jen, I eat my words. Apparently his pulse did go up.
    I wasn't upset at all, I was agreeing. Jennifer had insinuated that she could trot out some posts wherein I came across as a know-it-all. I have absolutely no doubt that she or anyone else so inclined could readily do so. However, it's fallacious to assume that because I sometimes come across as a know-it-all I believe that I am always right; even if Jennifer were to make a small compendium of such posts, it would in no way contradict my assertion that I do not, in fact, believe that I am always right. Hence you were 100% correct when you said that it wouldn't budge me.

    What would force me to eat crow and admit that I had contradicted myself is if Jennifer were able to find a post of mine where I had claimed to know everything. As I have made no such claim, she would be unable to do so. This is what I had meant with my previous post although, admittedly, the wording could have been better.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I wasn't upset at all, I was agreeing. Jennifer had insinuated that she could trot out some posts wherein I came across as a know-it-all. I have absolutely no doubt that she or anyone else so inclined could readily do so. However, it's fallacious to assume that because I sometimes come across as a know-it-all I believe that I am always right; even if Jennifer were to make a small compendium of such posts, it would in no way contradict my assertion that I do not, in fact, believe that I am always right. Hence you were 100% correct when you said that it wouldn't budge me.

    What would force me to eat crow and admit that I had contradicted myself is if Jennifer were able to find a post of mine where I had claimed to know everything. As I have made no such claim, she would be unable to do so. This is what I had meant with my previous post although, admittedly, the wording could have been better.
    The beautiful thing about all of this is that (since I am P and not J), I was simply making a very off-the-cuff joke of which I promptly forgot about afterwards, mostly indifferent to how accurate the content was -- but my impromptu action still generated a great deal of information that I can now use to further increase my mental model of Mycroft and INTJs in particular!

    (I feel like I just walked into the lunchroom and found a large, tasty peanut-butter-creme donut sitting all by its lonely self on the table, waiting for someone to take it home and call it Harold.)

    And, besides, I'm too lazy to make the compendium... especially now that you've warned me it would be fruitless in any case.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The beautiful thing about all of this is that (since I am P and not J), I was simply making a very off-the-cuff joke of which I promptly forgot about afterwards, mostly indifferent to how accurate the content was -- but my impromptu action still generated a great deal of information that I can now use to further increase my mental model of Mycroft and INTJs in particular!

    (I feel like I just walked into the lunchroom and found a large, tasty peanut-butter-creme donut sitting all by its lonely self on the table, waiting for someone to take it home and call it Harold.)

    And, besides, I'm too lazy to make the compendium... especially now that you've warned me it would be fruitless in any case.
    It's all good. One of the things I like most about this board is that it offers me a chance to hone my logic. Believe it or not, when (not if, Lord knows) the day comes that I've irrefutably made a logical error I will own up to it gracefully.

    Just out of curiosity, what is your mental image of me?
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  6. #36
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    It's all good. One of the things I like most about this board is that it offers me a chance to hone my logic. Believe it or not, when (not if, Lord knows) the day comes that I've irrefutably made a logical error I will own up to it gracefully.

    Just out of curiosity, what is your mental image of me?
    Hmm.. not many of the specifics, because you don't talk about your "outside life" as much... but in general, I see you as a careful, calm, reasoned thinker; mature; accessible; open; trustworthy; someone I very much like and enjoy responding to. I take your posts and their content seriously.

    Sort of like your avatar.

    (Maybe you should switch to a Marilyn Manson one and see if that impacts my perception.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #37
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    You would have made an excellent politician in another life. At any rate, apologies to everyone for hijacking the thread to fish for compliments. Er, carry on!
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  8. #38
    Senior Member Langrenus's Avatar
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    The question, Mycroft, is have you changed your perception of Jennifer in light of these platitudes, or has your closed-minded certitude precluded even the possibility of such a change occurring?
    January has April's showers
    And 2 and 2 always makes a 5

  9. #39
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langrenus View Post
    The question, Mycroft, is have you changed your perception of Jennifer in light of these platitudes, or has your closed-minded certitude precluded even the possibility of such a change occurring?
    Nope, I had assessed that she was good people to begin with and was correct because I'm always right.







    ...OH &'%$$#
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  10. #40
    Senior Member Rohsiph's Avatar
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    I don't have any clear memories of falling into the touched-upon "traps" of INTJ "closed-minded certitude" in the past; however, I have noticed a gradual shift in my willingness to admit when I am wrong since entering college--perhaps suggesting that I used to never do so.

    I think that I have largely found my way around such traps, and, hopefully, being aware of how they might appear should mean that I will continue to avoid them

    I attribute my increased willingness to admit wrongness to a period about a year and a half ago where my thoughts were largely focused on various forms of philosophical skepticism. My current philosophical foundation is now largely rooted in a kind of skepticism, particularly about the nature of certainty when discussing knowledge.

    Perhaps of interest: I will often find myself trying to figure out my faults, especially when I think about my friends, and I imagine myself asking friends who I commonly will discuss with them about their own faults (and how to potentially fix them) whether or not they notice any such faults that they might be able to help me with. The one time I actually asked this question, which was before encountering personality theory, I ended up asking my ESFJ friend, and he gave me nothing to work with

    I connect this to the ptgatsby's early reply, along with wondering about how apparent my actual open-mindedness is. Eh.

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