User Tag List

View Poll Results: Do you suffer from/find that INXJs tend to suffer from closed-minded certitude?

Voters
110. You may not vote on this poll
  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I have never really suffered from it

    15 13.64%
  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I used to suffer from it, but have overcome it

    14 12.73%
  • I am an INTJ and I believe that I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it

    20 18.18%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I have never really suffered from it

    12 10.91%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I used to suffer from it, but have overcome it

    6 5.45%
  • I am an INFJ and I believe that I suffer from it, but I am working to overcome it

    11 10.00%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that practically all INTJs suffer from it

    17 15.45%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that 50% of INTJs or more suffer from it

    8 7.27%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that fewer than 50% of INTJs suffer from it

    7 6.36%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that this is not really a problem area for INTJs

    3 2.73%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that practically all INFJs suffer from it

    10 9.09%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that 50% of INFJs or more suffer from it

    9 8.18%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that fewer than 50% of INFJs suffer from it

    8 7.27%
  • I am not an INXJ and I find that this is not really a problem area for INFJs

    8 7.27%
Multiple Choice Poll.
First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 103

  1. #11
    Wait, what? Varelse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    1,698

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    INTJs are always right. It's not that they are "objectively" right, it's that, right of this moment, they are right. If it turns out that they were wrong about something, they change it... and of course, that means they are right again. Since the change is instant, they are never wrong... always right, always certain.
    Elwin does that. Sadly.

    And he also accuses me of not listening to him when he goes into his lecture mode...because I don't agree with him.

    Maybe that's better than being indecisive, though.
    We are not poets
    We have no right to make amendments

  2. #12
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    My daughter is so funny because she will make some assertion without thinking much about it as if it is Absolute Truth, then I will tell her that she is wrong and why. If I'm undeniably right, she will say "Exactly!"

    It's like watching a cat commit some ungraceful act, then immediately begin bathing itself. "I meant to do that!"
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #13
    Pareo cattus Natrushka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    1,213

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Oh, I've tempered you, haven't I dear? (I'm sure she'll have something to say on this )
    Meh, it is what it is; the truth. Anyone who makes an effort to try to understand us (INTJs) is worthy just by the very act. It doesn't hurt if you appeal to the ego - and if you're right.

    This signature left intentionally blank.

    Really.

  4. #14
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 so/sp
    Posts
    1,080

    Default

    I don't think that I'm "always right" by any stretch of the imagination. In any given situation, I make the best decision I can with the time and information at my disposal. Am I wrong occasionally? Of course. However, even factoring in the backtracking and patchwork my misfires necessitate, I get more accomplished by a long shot than all of my P friends who sit around hoping to find that one perfect solution. (And, guess what, even with all of their waiting around to find that "perfect plan", their plans misfire sometimes, too!)

    As stressed by Clausewitz, a good commander realizes when the tactics have failed and recalculates accordingly, never forsaking the overall strategy.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My daughter is so funny because she will make some assertion without thinking much about it as if it is Absolute Truth, then I will tell her that she is wrong and why. If I'm undeniably right, she will say "Exactly!"

    It's like watching a cat commit some ungraceful act, then immediately begin bathing itself. "I meant to do that!"
    Sigh. That *really* sounds like my daughter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    I don't think that I'm "always right" by any stretch of the imagination...
    Far too many pokes to make, far too many to choose from...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    I don't know. Sometimes I'm very certain about something for reasons even I can't figure out...more often than not I'm partially correct (which can annoy people when I say, "See! I was kind of right!")

    I can get stubborn about an opinion sometimes, and it doesn't even mean that I think I'm "right." It just means that I have a certain perception that I can't seem to shake or reason away, so it can lead to some pretty close-minded views. I seem to find these views whenever I have a discussion with my SO about some topic I either don't fully understand or have a pre-existing perception. He usually tries to help me reason myself out of it, and most of the time it works...though there's the occasional opinion that won't budge--that I WANT to budge. Right now, I'm trying to work through a particular issue that caused a recent argument between us...I swear it's like trying to push a 5-ton block sometimes.

  7. #17
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    2,054

    Default

    Gone two hours and so much of substance to reply to!

    (Blackwater, this post is for you. )

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I haven't really suffered much for it, though, that I can think of, though I may have inflicted suffering on others.

    Edit: For the poll, I probably suffer from it but I am not working to overcome it. I think awareness of it is about the best I can do with this thing. It's too innate and hard-wired in. I didn't see that option.
    I believe that becoming aware of the extent and intensity to which one suffers from closed-minded certitude constitutes the bulk of the work one has to do to overcome it, because it's the ego-wrenching part. Once wallowing in the magnitude of one's idiocy , taking steps to improve attains paramount importance. (We want to get back to being inculpable as soon as we can, right? ) So I suggest that those who acknowledge some CC tendencies but feel unmotivated to modify their behavior in any way vote for the "never suffered from it" option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Langrenus View Post
    Protest! Where's the "I am an INTJ and I believe that I suffer from it, and I intend to carry on pretending to be ignorant to the issue" option?
    Does the above answer your question?

    On a more serious note, I think you've identified an inherent weakness, but calling it closed-minded certitude is unfair - and I'm always right, so there. As pt points out, we can actually be very flexible in light of new information. I am a master of making assertions and then quietly moulding them as people present new (read contradictory) information, until by the end of the argument they never know where we started and have agreed with the conclusion I've reached. Clearly this works better in person than on a message board, which is probably why I self-censor so much here and withdraw from making posts; it's not pleasant to have people present quotes halfway through a discussion, since I feel compelled to defend them even if I was wrong (how this will come back to haunt me...)
    Yes, when faced with an incontrovertible argument, INXJs will in fact often concede the point and update our opinion, but (like you describe) we do so silently and preserve appearances of having been right all along. This is only academically better than the self-deceiving variant, because the effect on our relationships with other people is the same. People who humor the practice get along very well with INXJs, but the song-and-dance still detracts from the INXJ's total package, whereas people who are impatient with the practice are subjected to aggressive (for INTJs, anyway) rationalization and if this fails, summarily avoided. All else equal, the INXJ's problematic behavior lowers the quality of the company the INXJ gets to keep.

    This brings me to the reason why I believe (/hope ) that becoming fully aware of one's CC raises one's odds of overcoming it to 1. I touched upon it in the OP, but restating it won't hurt:

    Being wrong sometimes does not hurt our standing with other people.

    In fact, those close to us are already well acquainted with our fallibility - and when we start to recognize it too, they like and respect us more for it!

    So ironically (since we are eternal improvement-seekers), our biggest problem, once acknowledged, is easy to fix. After our ego has fully accepted the imperfection of our judgment, qualifying statements, conceding points and openly admitting errors becomes no big deal (though admittedly it does take some practice ).

    So why is it so difficult for INXJs to truly acknowledge our CC (I refer, of course, only to those of us who suffer from it )? I believe the cause of our denial is actually pretty simple. What is the core competency of an INXJ that we trade in the social marketplace? What is the unique value that we bring to our relationships with other people? Even if well-rounded (and hence possessing to some degree the hallmark qualities of other types), what is likely to make up the foundation for our identity is our insightfulness. No wonder we are scared when we perceive it is threatened. (And no wonder we are uncomfortable around ESXPs, the types who are the least likely to appreciate it.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Best way to crush the INTJ's problem? Make them keep track of how often they are wrong. Statistics > INTJ worldview.

    You said it.

    I would add that doing it lovingly is key. Whip and carrot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Far too many pokes to make, far too many to choose from...
    Psst, Jen, just hinting at a reality check budges an INXJ not an inch.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Dark Razor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    8w7
    Socionics
    ENTj
    Posts
    271

    Default

    Mh, maybe I can add an ENTJ perspective here. I do not think that I am always right, this depends on what I am talking about, usually I will only comment on something with a definite statement if I have thoroughly researched the subject, otherwise I am more likely to ask assertive questions about the topic and then try to enter the discussion based on the information that is provided by the answers.

    If I have researched something then it may look as if my statements are definite, but I usually expect that they could at least be partially wrong because it is impossible to review all the available information on a subject, so there is always the possibility of missing something that some person who has researched the subject from a different angle could point out and so develop both our understanding of the issue, though that is often not apparent from my presentation style.

    However I usually have no patience with people who question the whole premise of the discussion/topic, so I will usually dismiss them. Once I have established that the premise is true (and I will be thorough with that) I expect others to accept that as fact and go from there, the rest of the issue is still open for dispute, but the premise is not, and if you refuse to accept that then you're out.

    Of course I also act that way if I am wrong about the premise, though in that case it will usually become quickly apparent that I'm in fact wrong, which is of course highly emberassing and will cause me to become quite annoyed with myself (which will often look as if I am annoyed with my discussion partner). In that case I will try to learn about the correct way as fast as possible so that I become capable of taking the lead again.

    If there are two mutually exclusive views of something, a popular example would be creationism vs. science, then I believe there is "right" and "wrong" and I do not accept the other side as a valid viewpoint because it is simply not true and should be changed. So I would for example not permit intelligent design to be taught in school but rather ban it from all discussion in school and set the goal of getting everyone to accept evolution as fact, as it should be. I realize this might sound scary to some , of course not all issues are that clearly black and white, but I think it is very important to be able to distinguish which topics are black and white and which are not, and many people can't do that from my experience. Some people are always trying to inject some grey area that sometimes just is not there and so they unnecessarily delay decisions.

  9. #19
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,586

    Default

    So what exactly is Ni then? I often hear it explained as being able to view a scenario from multiple perspectives. That would seem to be the opposite of what you describe here, and yet it is the primary function of both INTJs and INFJs. I am getting so confused.

    I also have no way to answer the original poll. The potential for irony is dizzying. I do find myself exploring a somewhat devil's advocate position in relationship to whomever I am discussing to be certain all sides are viewed. My entire mind is also in a deep state of flux in which there is virtually nothing I am certain of. I wrestle to approach politics, religion, philosophy, etc. because I view most sides simultaneously. It's very difficult to reach a decision unless it is in something in which I have been viewing every side for a long time, then when opportunity arises, I settle on the best plan, shut my eyes, and leap. I actually wish I could have more certainty. I'm getting rather tired of this endless expanse of grey. But am I certain of not being certain?

    One of my quests in life is to find people willing to discuss ideas at a distance. That way I can explore multiple sides without constantly having to define my position. When analyzing, I prefer to lose myself completely so that personal opinion is dissolved into the greater sea of information. On those rare occassions when I have reached a conclusion, I don't mind debate except when it is cheap and quick. When people use personality, bluff, and arrogance in place of a well thought out position, i get really frustrated. I wouldn't bother presenting a position if I hadn't put a lot of thought into it. I appreciate when others have done the same. Mindless dismissal will make me appear far more opinionated than I actually am.

    edit: Isn't Si more about certainty? Isn't Ni somewhat opposite? or somehow similar? Bah!! now i'm getting confused about type again.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  10. #20
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    So what exactly is Ni then? I often hear it explained as being able to view a scenario from multiple perspectives. That would seem to be the opposite of what you describe here, and yet it is the primary function of both INTJs and INFJs. I am getting so confused.
    Ni is the ability to view a scenario from multiple perspectives. It's just that some INTJ's and INFJ's tend to use that ability to look at the scenario that showed their original thinking to be inaccurate in such a way that they believe they realized the answer before, or that the correct answer fits into their original thinking, and they simply failed to mention that aspect. Sometimes this looks arrogant (especially with INTJ's), but in fact it's just how their thoughts work. In reality, I doubt any of them ever truly believe that any particular perspective (even their own) is universally valid. I've learned how to show that I'm stating an opinion, and not say things in such a way that I'm perceived as being completely sure of myself. The way I look at things is, I have many opinions and rules that apply to things from my preferred perspective(s), but they may be completely meaningless or different from a different perspective.

    I also have no way to answer the original poll. The potential for irony is dizzying. I do find myself exploring a somewhat devil's advocate position in relationship to whomever I am discussing to be certain all sides are viewed. My entire mind is also in a deep state of flux in which there is virtually nothing I am certain of. I wrestle to approach politics, religion, philosophy, etc. because I view most sides simultaneously. It's very difficult to reach a decision unless it is in something in which I have been viewing every side for a long time, then when opportunity arises, I settle on the best plan, shut my eyes, and leap. I actually wish I could have more certainty. I'm getting rather tired of this endless expanse of grey. But am I certain of not being certain?
    I'm not certain what that implies, but from my usual perspective, that would indicate a strong tendency toward Ni.

    One of my quests in life is to find people willing to discuss ideas at a distance. That way I can explore multiple sides without constantly having to define my position. When analyzing, I prefer to lose myself completely so that personal opinion is dissolved into the greater sea of information. On those rare occasions when I have reached a conclusion, I don't mind debate except when it is cheap and quick. When people use personality, bluff, and arrogance in place of a well thought out position, i get really frustrated. I wouldn't bother presenting a position if I hadn't put a lot of thought into it. I appreciate when others have done the same. Mindless dismissal will make me appear far more opinionated than I actually am.
    This is mostly how I tend to be as well. I really don't like it when someone dismisses or berates my ideas without even really looking at them, or worse, uses their influence to discredit/dismiss them. I'm also bothered when I see someone doing this to another person. However, if they can explain their perspective, I'm happy to hear it.

    edit: Isn't Si more about certainty? Isn't Ni somewhat opposite? or somehow similar? Bah!! now i'm getting confused about type again.
    Actually, I recently put forth an idea that Ni is more the opposite side of Se than Si. I believe that Ni and Si can actually look very similar because they are both introverted perceiving functions. Tell me if you can relate to this idea:

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200
    Se and Ni both deal with reality as it happens, believe it or not. Se simply appears to look outwardly at reality as it happens, and unconsciously is reacting to an abstract model of it created by the senses and mind, believing it to be reality. In other words, Ni works unconsicously, creating a representation of reality. Because we only perceive things in our minds, through our senses, we cannot see reality, only a representation of it. Whoever said, "We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are" was quite correct.

    Ni is a bit different. It focuses on the creation of the abstraction itself, aware that it is only creating a representation of reality. With the awareness of your mind constructing this abstraction, you have to consciously focus on creating it. But with this awareness, you aren't limited to representations of reality. You can take an awareness of any given thing, and represent it internally. Se works unconsciously, feeding data from the senses with which you consciously try to create the abstractions. In other words, Se perceives the "reality", Ni perceives the internal construction of the "reality".

Similar Threads

  1. [SJ] Fellow SJs: do people see you as "closed-minded"?
    By EJCC in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 09-18-2017, 09:48 PM
  2. [NT] Who's more close-minded: NTJs or NTPS?
    By Zarathustra in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 164
    Last Post: 10-26-2014, 01:53 AM
  3. [NT] Who's more close-minded: INTJs or ENTJs?
    By Zarathustra in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: 08-08-2010, 01:07 PM
  4. Who's more close-minded: me or you?
    By VagrantFarce in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 08-01-2010, 08:55 PM
  5. [NT] Who's more close-minded: INTPs or ENTPs?
    By Zarathustra in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 08-01-2010, 01:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO